GRACE CREEK MEDIA

"IDEAS IN ACTION"

INTERVIEW WITH LAURA BUSH, MELANNE VERVEER, IRINA BOKOVA, SAID JAWAD

MEDIA ID: IDEAS IN ACTION AFGHAN WOMEN



JIM GLASSMAN:

Welcome to Ideas in Action. I'm Jim Glassman. We're here on the campus of Southern Methodist University in Dallas, TX, where the George W. Bush Presidential Center is located. The US Afghan Women's Council met at Southern Methodist University recently, bringing together leaders from around the world to focus on efforts to educate the women of Afghanistan.

I had a chance to talk with several of them, including former First Lady Laura Bush. She's taken an active role in promoting the welfare of women and girls in Afghanistan and currently serves as the honorary advisor to the US-Afghan Women's Council. Ambassador Melanne Verveer. She currently serves as President Obama's Ambassador-at-Large for global women's issues. Her Excellency Irina Bokova, Director General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO. Said Jawad, Afghan ambassador to the United States. Ambassador Jawad has played a major role in rebuilding Afghanistan. This week the women of Afghanistan: the progress they're making, the challenges they still face.

(MUSICAL INTERLUDE)

VOICEOVER:

Funding for Ideas in Action is provided by Investor's Business Daily. Every stock market cycle is led by America's never-ending stream of innovative new companies and inventions. Investor's Business Daily helps investors find these new leaders as they emerge. More information is available at investors.com. JIM GLASSMAN:

When the Taliban took over Afghanistan in 1996, they turned back the clock on women's rights. Under their rule, women were forbidden to go to school, denied access to health care and prevented from participating in society. Professional women, teachers, doctors, business owners were forced inside, underground and into a burkha any time they ventured out.

In 2001 a US-led campaign ousted the Taliban and brought a measure of stability to the country, improving the lives of some women. But the average Afghan woman's life expectancy is still only 44 years. And an estimated 60 6o 80 percent of all marriages are imposed on women against their will. Girls and women who try to exercise their constitutional right to education and a role in business and politics do so at great personal risk to themselves and their families.

AFGHAN WOMAN:

I am not sure that after one hour I will be alive or not. After one day I will be alive or not.

VOICEOVER:

Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States and the president of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

GEORGE BUSH:

Thank you.

JIM GLASSMAN:

In 2002, then-President George Bush and Afghan president Hamid Karzai founded the US-Afghan Women's Council. The organization is made up of companies, individuals, governmental and non-governmental organizations. They work to improve education, literacy, health care, and economic and political empowerment for Afghan women. Today, former President Bush and his wife Laura Bush are still leading efforts to help the women of Afghanistan.

GEORGE BUSH:

I believe women will lead the democracy movement in the Middle East. And so one of our areas of focus is on empowering women.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Mrs. Bush, thank you for joining us today.

LAURA BUSH:

Thanks, Jim.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Why did you decide to help start the US-Afghan Women's Council?

LAURA BUSH:

Well, President Bush and President Karzai from Afghanistan launched the US-Afghan Women's Council in 2002. And it was really shortly after September 11th that I think the eyes of the world turned to Afghanistan. And American women particularly-- were shocked-- with the contrast between the lives of women in Afghanistan and the severe oppression of women and-- our own lives.

And I started to hear from many, many women who wanted to do something, wanted to be able to reach out to our sisters in Afghanistan. And immediately-- a group of women who-- had a great idea-- joined with us and-- started a number of projects. One woman funded-- a lot of the secret schools. The women who would risk their lives during the time of the Taliban and had run little schools in their basements or in the privacy of their own homes.

Another woman started-- a company called Arzu, which means 'hope.' And it's a weaving company that employs Afghan women to weave rugs to save their craft-- and their-- skills that-- that many Afghan women had. And then at the same time two inner literacy classes, to learn to read themselves, to learn how to keep their own books from their business when they sell their rugs. And then to actually-- build a market in the United States-- for Americans to buy those rugs.

And I did buy one of those Arzu rugs for our ranch, and I bought two for the White House. So, those are just two examples of-- of many ways that American women have reached out to mentor and to partner with women in Afghanistan. All with the hope of strengthening women there so that women can enter civic life and-- take their places besides men.

JIM GLASSMAN:

So, it's now been eight years. What has touched your heart the most?

LAURA BUSH:

Well, there have been so many really wonderful stories from all of these different women who-- partnered with women in Afghanistan. Both great stories of success, and then many women, the ones who start to go to teacher training institutes and then end up-- teaching school still are-- have a lot of risk. Some of the things that make me feel great are hearing-- the stories of success and how women business leaders in Afghanistan have built their businesses. And it's because they've been mentored by an American woman who's in the same business they're in.

Last year I met with a graduating group of women here in Dallas-- that go-- come here. They're entrepreneurs. They owned hardware stores. One of 'em has a company that makes soccer balls. They-- one is a beauty shop owner. And they were mentored in the United States. They stayed with a woman who was in the very same profession they were in-- all over the country. And then came together for-- here in Dallas at Northwood University for business classes and business skill classes. And I got to be there at their graduation. And that was really exciting. They've all built their businesses in the year since they've been here. And-- the next group of Afghan women will be going through this same program later this spring here.

JIM GLASSMAN:

And this mentoring part of the program is so important. Working with the women.

LAURA BUSH:

That's right. I mean, that's-- both it gives American women a chance to reach out and to help-- change the lives of women in Afghanistan. I just was with a minister for women's affairs in Afghanistan. And another Afghan woman who started teacher training institutes all over-- the country of Afghanistan in-- really an effort to train teachers as fast as possible, to get 'em into classes so more and more children and adults-- can be taught to read as-- as quickly as possible.

But I was with them, and they said they really do know, and that people-- women in Afghanistan know that the women of the United States are standing with them. And I think that's really important, for them to know that they have our-- support, our moral support, and that we're watching and wishing and praying for them and hoping for the very best for them.

JIM GLASSMAN:

People who are watching this program may want to help, American women helping the women of Afghanistan. Is there something specific they can do?

LAURA BUSH:

There are specific things. And they can contact the US-Afghan Women's Council, which is really made up of-- individual women who've started programs all over-- Afghanistan, who are partnering with their Afghan sisters. They can do things like start to raise money for schools-- specifically to build schools-- in Afghanistan, which is really important.

They can meet with their friends and neighbors and get a group together maybe that wants to support a specific school or a specific-- women-owned enterprise. Micro-credit's very important, these very small loans of money to Afghan women as they build their businesses. There are a lot of ways for American women to reach out. And I know American women want-- want to be able to reach out.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Now, when was the last time you were in Afghanistan?

LAURA BUSH:

Well, I visited Bamyan province in 2008, I think late spring of 2008. Bamyan is a remote province. It's the province where those two towering sixth-century Buddhas were-- that the Taliban shocked the world by destroying. They'd been there since the sixth century and then just were destroyed shortly before September 11th. Bamyan has a woman governor. It's the only province with a woman governor in Afghanistan. When I was there, I visited a group of women police officers. So, it really is happening--

JIM GLASSMAN:

Amazing.

LAURA BUSH:

--That-- in many parts of Afghanistan, security's good. And women are taking their rightful places, half of-- the society. It's not everywhere in Afghanistan, but there are a lot of stories of success.

JIM GLASSMAN:

And so in the six years between the start of the US-Afghan Women's Council and your last visit to Afghanistan, you have seen some major improvements.

LAURA BUSH:

Yes, definitely. I mean, just imagine. No one would've thought there would be a woman governor-- six years ago. Or that women would have the opportunity to train to be police officers.

JIM GLASSMAN:

On a personal note-- how are you enjoying your life in Texas after leaving the White House?

LAURA BUSH:

Well, we are really enjoying it. And of course today this conference, the US-Afghan Women's Conference that's focused specifically on literacy and education, is a program of-- the George Bush Institute, is one of the co-sponsors of this. And George and I hope to continue for the rest of our lives-- to work with the people of Afghanistan and women across the broader Middle East through the Bush Institute. If women are free to be able to contribute to their communities and their societies equally with men, that each of these societies can build big, broad economies. They can build a civic life that includes everyone.

JIM GLASSMAN:

And with all the challenges ahead in Afghanistan, you feel that there has been a lot that's been accomplished in the last eight years.

LAURA BUSH:

There's been a lot of progress. You know, we read of the-- sad and terrible-- bombings-- in cities in-- where a few people die. And those are really-- they're scary. That's what scares people. And they're threatening. And especially to women. But they're minor. They're one thing, they're one happening. And there are many other good-- good things going on. So-- that's what we want to focus on.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Well, thank you--

LAURA BUSH:

Thank you.

JIM GLASSMAN:

--Mrs. Laura Bush.

LAURA BUSH:

Thanks so much, Jim.

CONNIE DUCKWORTH:

How many people here have a floor? (LAUGHTER) Raise-- can I see a show of hands, please? Come on, I only see two hands. Okay. Well, here is what you can do at any point. You can own an Arzu rug. And I'll tell you, anybody that knows me, including Mrs. Bush, who is-- is a repeat customer (LAUGHTER) can simply support women in Afghanistan by doing something you would do anyway. When you look at your home, you look at your company or your office. You donate it to your school. There are a lot of ways, there are a lot of floors in Dallas. And I am confident that everyone of 'em will look better with an Arzu rug on it. (LAUGHTER) So, thank you.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Melanne Verveer, Ambassador-at-large for global women's issues. Thank you for joining us.

MELANNE VERVEER:

My pleasure.

JIM GLASSMAN:

You know, there have been reports that there are concerns among Afghan women that the talks about reconciliation between the government and the Taliban might leave them in a much worse position than they are today as far as their rights are concerned. Is the Obama administration going to do something to make sure that their rights are preserved in case of reconciliation?

MELANNE VERVEER:

When-- the leaders-- met-- recently in London-- for a conference about the future-- in this respect-- the Secretary of State clearly stated-- that women were central to building the better-- future of Afghanistan-- and that they would not be left out of the process, and we have to ensure that that happens.

JIM GLASSMAN:

So, you feel confident that the new freedoms that women have been enjoying over the last eight years are not going to evaporate if there's a reconciliation?

MELANNE VERVEER:

Cautiously optimistic. If we all work together-- both our government working-- to-- to make sure that this is something that happens. Obviously, there are many countries involved in Afghanistan. And this is-- continuing to be on the agenda.

JIM GLASSMAN:

You know, President Bush has said several times that women are going to be the leaders in change and bringing democracy around the world. He was especially referring to the Middle East. Do you agree with that?

MELANNE VERVEER:

I absolutely agree with that. And we do see it. And sometimes they-- they bring that change by going through the doorway of economic participation. In some places where political participation-- is out of the question or where the struggle is still at its earliest stages-- women are becoming engaged. The first rung is often being engaged in small business endeavors or-- in some other economic realm.

But inevitably, they want to bring change to their societies. They want a better future. Morocco has adopted a family law reform after many years that shows that these kinds of reforms are in step with Koranic values, with Islamic values. And women in the predominantly Muslim world are-- are not-- satisfied. And they are often challenging.

Those who hijack their religion, and hijack it in the-- in the name of women shouldn't participate in politics, or they shouldn't go to school, or whatever the extremists say. And the women are saying, "No, we view ourselves as very good Muslims."

And they are articulating a consistent view with Koranic values that is all about women's progress, women's right to full dignity-- women's-- universal rights-- being protected. There is no place for violence. And violence can never be-- subscribed to as something that can be condoned by any religion. It is wrong, it is not cultural. It is totally criminal.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Thank you, Ambassador Verveer--

MELANNE VERVEER:

You're welcome.

ZOHRA SAFI:

We like to talk about-- the significant role the Initiative to Educate Afghan Women has played in my life-- and the lives of the women it brings to the United States for education. In the program we have students representing 15 provinces and three ethnicities: Pashtun, Tajik, and Hazara. For us Afghan women to be able to study in the US is, like, a life-changing opportunity. The education that we receive is of tremendous value to us, our families, and our society.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Irina Bokova, the Director-General of UNESCO, thanks for being with us today.

IRINA BOKOVA:

Thank you.

JIM GLASSMAN:

What role does UNESCO play in improving the lives of the women of Afghanistan?

IRINA BOKOVA:

It's-- thanks to-- the contribution of UNESCO that the national education plan has been-- elaborated, adopted, which we consider extremely important to set the right policies in the country. Then of course it's-- the capacity-building-- in terms of-- educating-- primarily women-- women and girls. Teacher training. And then of course it's the creating an information system and monitoring-- the-- different-- evolutions in the-- education system. And-- for obvious reason, I'm going to say it's a priority for us.

JIM GLASSMAN:

So, things have improved in Afghanistan. I mean, when you talk about information, some of the metrics-- there are more people who now are literate. But there still is a very high lit-- illiteracy rate.

JIM GLASSMAN:

If you look at the figures, it's-- it's really very depressing because-- you can't have a stable-- democratic development. You can't have-- a stable economic and social development. You don't have a future in the country. Where still-- you have-- something like 75, 80 percent of-- mainly women illiterate in this country. Our goal is-- to have in the primary education-- at least 60 percent of-- of the girls-- attending-- schools. And-- also-- to have-- much stronger focus on adult education.

JIM GLASSMAN:

How-- how much of Afghanistan's problems are cultural? That is to say that-- it's the society in which women really-- have not-- certainly for a long time had positions of-- importance. And women are kept down in lots of other ways. So, does the culture have to change?

IRINA BOKOVA:

Well-- there are cultural problems. But-- let me remind you that-- and-- and it was-- this fact was mentioned during the conference that-- years ago-- Afghanistan-- had the much higher-- literacy higher-- literacy and much-- rate and much higher standard of education system. The University of Kabul was-- was known-- in the region. It was attracting a lot of-- a lot of students. So, it shows that-- if you-- just lose one generation-- if-- setbacks are very quick.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Is there something more that the international community can do to help Afghanistan?

IRINA BOKOVA:

I do believe that international community can-- can do a lot more-- to strengthen-- the-- education system, of course, first of all. And then to-- improve the-- situation of women. But let me say something-- extremely important. To my mind, this is ownership. And I think that the government of Afghanistan and the Afghani people, they have to-- have a real ownership on-- on this process only that-- international aid can be effective.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Thank you, Irina Bokova.

IRINA BOKOVA:

Thank you also. SAKENA YACOOBI: Afghanistan is in a situation that a lot of people feel sorry for us, but I don't like that. And I don't-- I want to tell all of you right now. All of you are donor, maybe some of you just say, "What is this she's talking about like this?" (LAUGHTER) But (LAUGH) I really mean it. I-- I'm just saying that the people of Afghanistan are very proud. Is there a challenge in Afghanistan? Yes. We have been through 30 years of war.

When I went to the camp refugee, when I saw those women, when I saw those children, when I saw those barbaric people. And yes, they suffer. And to overcome 33 years of war and problem is not easy. It takes time. Be patient with us. Don't feel sorry for us. But be with us us.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Said Jawad, the ambassador from Afghanistan to the United States, thank you for joining us today.

SAID JAWAD:

It's my pleasure.

JIM GLASSMAN:

You know, there have been reports that-- women in Afghanistan are especially concerned about these talks, about reconciliation with the Taliban, that perhaps a deal may be struck that leaves them in a worse position than they are as far as their rights are concerned. What's your response to that? Can you guarantee that women will continue to have the rights that they acquired starting in 2002?

SAID JAWAD:

There is really not yet a national consensus on the issue of reconciliation in Afghanistan and also an agreement among all our partners outside Afghanistan. There are different ideas, different proposals. And sometime rightfully-- the Afghan womens are concerned that-- there will be costly compromises-- will be made in order to buy some security in Afghanistan. We will have a conference in Kabul to convene in-- at the end of April trying to-- to build this national consensus. I think it's also up to our friends in the international community to continue to support Afghan women and civil society. Because as I mentioned, they are not fully standing on their own feet yet.

JIM GLASSMAN:

What about the attitude of men in Afghanistan on issues involving the freedom of women? Has that changed over the last eight years?

SAID JAWAD:

Some of the impediments are cultural. And it's hard to change a culture by decree. Culture needs to be changed by education, by economic empowerment. The attitude of the men will change as-- as soon as they realize that if a woman can read and write, then the entire family will be better off. Or she can bring income to the family.

It is changing, but not throughout the country, especially in the countryside. We do face challenges. And I-- one point I want to make as-- also is if you push too aggressively on the part of the government, we may create a resistance. It's been in the past. Even at the beginning of 20th century, 1919, we had a former king who tried to impose a lot of drastic changes. But then those changes were regarded as an imposition from abroad. Same thing with the Marxist regime in the late 1970s. They were good intention, try to change things. But it didn't work out. It created resistance. So, has to be gradual.

JIM GLASSMAN:

What kinds of changes can be made in Afghan law that would protect women against the violence that we're hearing? Domestic violence?

SAID JAWAD:

The laws are improving. And the laws have improved a lot. What we need is to-- to make sure that the law applies. A lot of-- in many instances, when violence are taking place against women, they remain confined in the-- in the home. And if-- but if they are-- even if they are taken to a-- to the court or to the judicial system, there is no adequate capability to enforce the law.

And it's not only in case of women. In case of men, too, there are violence, there are crimes being committed-- even the terrorists sometimes actually. They're arrested. And whether they're evil intentions after a while, they-- they walk away. So, it's more investment in law enforcement. It's very much important in order to give also credibility to the good laws. It doesn't help if you have good laws on the book, but you cannot implement it on the reality.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Are you frustrated at all that-- some of the partner governments that are attempting to help Afghanistan don't have a great understanding, let's say, for the culture that you've been talking about?

SAID JAWAD:

Of course. Not-- it's not only the issue of-- of-- understanding. They bring different degrees of commitment and capabilities to the table. Some of them are in Afghanistan because of a political reasons, doing a favor, for instance, to the United States. Some of NATO countries have different issues for being in Afghanistan.

So, we have to deal-- with different degrees of knowledge of the Afghanistan society as well as different degree of commitment and capabilities. Sometimes we are able to create a synergy between different capabilities. But sometimes there is a push to make them perform the same level. And that-- that push, that kind of-- policy of making them all perform at the same level w-- is not productive because there is no way that they will have these capabilities.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Can you give us a prediction? What do you think Afghanistan will be like ten years from now?

SAID JAWAD:

It really depends on how resolute-- our partners in the United States and the rest of the world are to fight extremism and terrorism. If we continue to reduce the definition of omission in Afghanistan and just focus on certain aspect of-- security that impact the rest of the world, then Afghanistan will have a very hard time ahead of itself. But if you want to have a long-term, sustainable solution for security, then there is more need on building the institutions in Afghanistan and in staying with the Afghan people.

JIM GLASSMAN:

So, this is a long-term commitment both for your partners like the United States and for the Afghan people, and especially for Afghan women?

SAID JAWAD:

Certainly, certainly.

JIM GLASSMAN:

Thank you so much, Ambassador Jawad.

SAID JAWAD:

My pleasure, thank you. Great being here. Thank you.

JIM GLASSMAN:

This has been a special edition of Ideas in Action. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jim Glassman.

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