TCS Daily


Time Bomb

By Evgeny Morozov - August 28, 2006 12:00 AM

BERLIN -- Only three weeks after a foiled terrorist plot Germany has grasped the full scale of the disaster it had avoided by mere accident. The bombs planted on two trains in Western Germany could have brought a massacre on the scale of London and Madrid to a country that, being a strong opponent of the Iraqi war, has believed itself immune to terrorist attacks.

Yet the failed attack proved this was a delusion from the beginning: a significant community of angry and alienated Muslims, along with the failure to develop an effective domestic anti-terrorist strategy after the wake-up calls in the US, UK, and Spain, and its tacit support for Israel in its Middle East endeavors have added up to a recipe for disaster that many Germans were not prepared to face.

The two terrorist suspects, Youssef Mohamad el Hadjib and Jihad Hamad, have been arrested. Both men are believed to be of Lebanese descent. While little is known about the second suspect, information about Youssef Mohammad abounds.

He is a 21-year-old student of mechatronics (a combination of mechanics, information technology and electronics) at the University of Kiel, who came to Germany in 2004 and registered as a student in 2005. Conversations with his fellow students revealed that he traveled to Lebanon last month to attend a funeral of his brother killed during the Israeli offensive.

Although there appears an obvious personal reason for the attack, the German authorities believe that the two men are part of a larger terrorist group, which might even be operating on a pan-European level (an Islamic group called Hisb ut-Tahrir al Islami that was banned in Germany in 2003 features among potential suspects).

While there appeared little proof of any direct links between the two men and Hezbollah, Germany's tolerance towards this organization has come to the fore of public attention. According to last year's report from the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic intelligence agency, the country is home to 900 Hezbollah members. The unspoken agreement that has existed between Hezbollah leaders and German authorities was that no attacks would be perpetrated on German soil in exchange for a certain tolerance towards its militants residing in Germany.

Whether Hezbollah has changed its strategy in Germany or just lost control of its activists is of only secondary importance for the Germans, who on August 1 woke up in a different country. Now, it is no longer the Germany that frets about unemployment or a sluggish economy; it is a Germany that faces an almost existential terrorist threat coming from the millions of Muslim immigrants and, as in this case, students living around the country.

The failed integration of Muslim immigrants -- many of them in second and third generations -- into the community at large, a malaise that is slowly paralyzing the whole continent, has been apparent in Germany. This year the situation deteriorated quite rapidly: first, it was the case of an almost ritual murder of a girl of the Turkish origin by her brother who was enraged at her disregard for the strict Islamic traditions; then, it was an appeal by a group of teachers (most of them ethnic Germans) to close down a school, where they have been teaching, because, with a predominantly immigration population, it became too unruly to teach in.

So even though the current terrorist threat does not come from the immigrant population per se, but rather from students who entered Germany for short-term studies, there is absolutely no guarantee that their example will not inspire thousands of alienated and radicalized youngsters, most of them German citizens, to follow the pernicious example.

On some level, the threat emanating from the Muslim student population is even worse: they are largely unknown to the German security forces; they have a much stronger association with what is going on in the Middle East, and they have no attachment to Germany whatsoever. Furthermore, the current mass-production scale of the German university system hardly allows for early detection of such radicalized youngsters: with 500 students sharing a lecture hall, it is next to impossible to remember the names, not mention psychological traits, of the student body. Psychological counseling is still mostly unheard of in German schools.

Known for its financial generosity when it comes to education, Germany spends millions to educate people like Youssef Mohammad and even Mohamed Atta, one of the masterminds of 9/11, who then go on to use their technical expertise to construct bombs and explosives (in all fairness, one should point out that the two train bombs did not explode because they were poorly constructed -- so even the German technical education is no longer as good it used to be).

The government's response -- a more widespread use of CCTV cameras and the creation of a unified anti-terrorist database -- does not seem adequate. The cameras would only help to track down identities of the terrorists, which in the case of suicide bombers will bring rather limited consolation. The unified database will also be good for nothing, given that most of the terrorists seem to be in their early 20s and thus would hardly feature in the official files (not to mention that some of them hail from abroad and are only studying in Germany).

The German authorities cannot help but start working with the young Muslims susceptible to radicalization, no matter whether they were born in Germany (or, for that matter, in any other European country) or just came there to study. Leaving these youngsters to TV and the Internet is a sure way to have them enlisted by terrorist organizations; theirs is an entirely different Internet from the one that is browsed by other Germans. The failure to win the hearts and minds of the radicalized youth might perpetuate the scenario in which the governments spend tax funds to educate foreign terrorist experts who go on to blow up the very governments that have been so generous to them.

The author is a contributing writer to TCS Daily. He lives in Berlin and blogs at http://www.sharpandsound.com/.

Categories:

190 Comments

Is it time for camps?
Germany is filling up with Turks. France is filling up with Algerians. Britain and Spain and many other European countries are filled with Muslims from all over the globe. Everywhere where we see substantial Islamic populations, we see the rise of fundamentalist Islamofascism. The British example clearly shows that this madness is even attractive to third-generation Muslim citizens.

Are all Muslims bad? No, of course not. I have known many Muslims who are simply good and decent people who want nothing more than to earn a living and raise a family. However, a substantial minority clearly exists across the globe that is willing and eager to commit acts of violence against the West. Furthermore, it is a rare Muslim indeed that will actually condemn either the words or the actions of the terrorists.

If such a thing as a moderate Muslim exists, they need to start speaking out before the people of Europe start getting upset. Europe is filled with people and politicians who would like to see the Muslims gone. If there are further attacks, watch out for a repeat of 1492, where King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella drove the last of the Muslims and Jews out of Spain.

America is not very likely to repeat our past actions and start interning Muslims, but internment and mass-deportations need to be kept on the table. Furthermore, I think Congress needs to pass a resolution granting the President that authority. This sort of tool may be somewhat like using a throwing axe for eye surgery, but it will be effective in one way: It will remind the Muslims in this country that we can be nasty if they are not cooperative, and if they do not start denouncing terrorist propaganda whenever it is encountered. If Congress passes a resolution, it will not actually grant the President the power to intern Muslims, nor will it grant him the funding and resources necessary to do so. However, it will send a message that is loud and clear: Straighten up... or else.

So much for the foreign policy canard.
The usual nonsense from the left says “we brought it on ourselves” because of our foreign policy. However, the recent terrorist plots in Germany and Canada show otherwise. Let’s also remember the French Intifada by their home-grown Muslim malcontents.

While we’re at it, let’s recall that Muslims are killing Buddhist monks in Thailand, Christians in Nigeria and the Philippines, Russians in Beslan, Hindus in Bombay and Kashmir, tourists in Bali, etc. This blame-America propaganda is too silly for any reasonable person. Who, outside of the far left and the Lew Rockwell crowd, believes such nonsense?

But still there are some who can’t name the problem: Islam. Islam has had a revival and that's the problem.
http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2006/08/islamic-revival.html

vee haf vays of dealing....
Sure the Germans in one generation have changed from being the preeminent warrior state of Europe, to emasculated post-modern pacifist eunuchs. But still though we do have an example of the last time they really did get a scare; namely when those 'red brigades' or whatever they called them, Baader-Meinhoff, etc. At that time they did really have the political will to realize that they had to get rid of those terrorists. So they redid what the old Gestapo techniques did, trace people, and everybody they had any contract with, analysis it all, etc. All these old techniques really worked, but are not usually used these days, but now it could even be more effective with all those mobile phones, and email etc. And remember, "we have ways of making you talk"? That actually worked too notwithstanding all the crap you read these days about how torture doesn't reall get guys to talk. The old na zis didn't torture guys to get confessions, or just out of spite, but to get guys to give info on their activities and partners, etc. Pardon me for not being PC, but it did work. So the germans could take out all those guys, as could the americans and brits if they could just regrow their ba lls back on again.

Perhaps...
there are better ways of dealing with this than camps and torture?

How about the Germans, and the rest of EU and the world, realize that this just isn't in the imagination of Bush? That would be a great start. Waking up and seeing that there is an element out there that is feverishly seeking to bring down Western culture and replace it with its own.

That element is Islamofascism. The cultured elites of the EU have stood by while Israel and America has done the heavy-lifting on this issue. These organizations have flourished under the enlightened European nuance that "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter".

Perhaps the process of healing can begin with the concept that freedom fighters work towards a concept called "freedom". Something Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Fatah, al-Qaeda, Iran, etc. openly admits to having no understanding of.

A united front that works against the goals of the Islamofascists would be the greatest stepping stone to ending their threat. If you note, I make no mention of the UN due to its irredeemable nature.

I do not endorse torture, camps, or the purging of those Muslims who wish to live in peace and moderately follow their religion. I fully endorse the crippling and utter destruction of Islamofascist organizations and their members.

Absolutely correct, but missing the point...
There are better ways of dealing with the problem of Islamofascism, and you are entirely correct that crippling terrorist organizations is a part of it. However, if we want to win hearts and minds, and more importantly, to get those moderate Muslims to turn against their radical compatriots, they need to have an incentive to do something that is distinctly unpopular with their neighbors.

Right now, fence-sitting does not have any bad consequences. Acting or speaking out against radicals does. Moderate Muslims have no incentive to pick a side. Camps and mass-deportations provide this incentive. By giving the President the go-ahead to start locking Muslims up, we are sending a message to all moderate Muslims: You can no longer sit on the fence. You must either decide to join the terrorists or to be on the side of the good guys and denounce Islamofascism. Choose quick, before we deport you and your family back to that Middle Eastern rathole you came from.

In other words...
you wish to hold a gun to the head of the moderates in order to move them away from the radicals? Such a move would quickly radicalize the rest of the population.

At least in the US, as a moderate Muslim, I have the ability to ignore the words and deeds of the ass-clowns who happen to belong to my religion. Fence-sitting never was and never should be a crime. Just as many a Christian ignores the words of Pat Robertson. Now if the President is given the power to deport, imprision, or torture me and my family I, as a US citizen, would exercise my 2nd Amendment rights and resist.

I refuse to condone or even accept such a plan as a way of getting moderate Muslims to condemn the actions of those who share their religion.

While I have the right to be left alone and live my life as a peaceful American Muslim, my government has the right not to take my peaceful ways at face value. I am all about profiling and I should understand that the actions of my zealous "brothers" are the reason that I undergo rigorous searches at the airport and the reason I get suspicious stares in public. That is not the fault of my government nor is it the fault of the public. Simple put, it is the fault of those who have used my religion as an excuse to perform horrendous atrocities.

The government grouping me in with those cowards and vermin and threatening my family would most likely give me cause to consider the words of the jihadists more closely.

German Police
Remember it was the German police who failed to prosecute the conspiritors of the Pan Am bombing in 1988, Lockerbie, Scotland when they(Libyan stooges) stayed in Germany with forged passports and were posing as baggage handlers to put the semtex explosives aboard-this lazy police work led to 270 deaths on the 8th day of Hannakah, and hasn't been avenged by Mossad, CIA, The Bushes, Thatcher, IRA or Nationalist Libyans who can't stand Gaddaffi the Bedouin towel headed **** who has ordered abductions abroad, jailed dissenters "at Home" in adopted libya, and has sent tens of thousands to death and has God-knows how many trillions of dinars and mosques to hide behind.

If that is your ultimatum....
THAN GET OUT YESTERDAY!!! You dont see Christians talk like that (All 18 of them)in the middle eastern nations cuz they realize they would be arrested and-or mysteriously killed. If something as petty as profiling would threaten you than perhaps you are not as "MODERATE" as you claim. The govt can profile me all day as a Hungarian and it would not "likely give me cause to consider the words of the jihadists" as I love America and we need to do EVERYTHING to ensure the control of islam and keep it from destroying all that is western.
You can not "resist" a nation that wishes to remove you. You guys had 1400 years to show something nice to the world and have only shown consistent blooshed and invasion.
You would be shown the door in a most consistent manner and I find it repugnant that you would even try to stay and "resist", good luck on that attempt.
There is no other nationality, religion, or political group that has caused so much misery, consternation, murder, and enslavement of other peoples as islam so you should be ashamed of your statements.
Go buy "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam", but you wont, and you will see an eye opening review of your peaceful religion.

The law that allowed FDR to establish camps is still in effect
The government never eliminated it. It is still in effect. It doesn't matter if most Moslems aren't actively involved in the fundamentalist activities its enough if they do nothing to oppose them. Tolerance of such behavior makes these people less than innocent bystanders. People are not blind to what their sons are doing when they assemble bombs. They are not unaware when their children collect radical literature and videos.

The Germans never lost their balls
Its interesting to note that the leaders of the Bader Meinhof gang managed to shot themselves in maximum security prisons. Somehow I doubt if this would ever occur in American or British prisons.

Dietmar, you're absolutely correct that torture works. Even the American military freely admits it and even changed their code of conduct to reflect that no man could withstand such methods forever.

by doing nothing to help the police identify the radicals
the "moderates" provide the radicals with a ready place to hide.

So if you were aware of your son fund raising fro Hamas or Bin Laden
What would you do? Would you consider this to be neutral behavior. Would agitating for shuria justice to supplement or replace secular law be wrong? Would toleration of those who advocate the overthrow of the US government be considered toleration?

Whever I hear about Islamic moderates I always consider that the Japanese when placed in the camps decided to prove their loyalty and formed the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the most decorated unit of WWII. And I contrast this to the actions of moderate Islam and see?

To be fair there are always people who are fence sitters. But the hottest place in hell is reserved for these.

First of all...
read the damn post before you freak out.

Next, I never gave an ultimatum. If you actually had the IQ to read and not pick out random words out of paragraph you would have understood that.

Let's go through your deranged, imbecilic diatribe. I will attempt to refrain from making fun of your lack of spelling and coherance:

>"THAN GET OUT YESTERDAY!!! You dont see Christians talk like that (All 18 of them)in the middle eastern nations cuz they realize they would be arrested and-or mysteriously killed."

Christians talk like what? By the way, I am not a Muslim I was merely speaking from the point of view of how I would react if I was a Muslim.

But yes, I do understand that Muslim countries have restrictions on the freedom of speech. We, as Americans, do not so **** you.

>"If something as petty as profiling would threaten you than perhaps you are not as "MODERATE" as you claim."

The point was that Muslims should expect profiling as long as their zealous "brothers" continue to act like savages. What I am against was threatening them with camps and torture if they do not denounce those idiots. That is going way too far.

>"The govt can profile me all day as a Hungarian"

Yep. Profile the Hungarians. You guys are a dangerous bunch huh?

>"and it would not "likely give me cause to consider the words of the jihadists" as I love America and we need to do EVERYTHING to ensure the control of islam and keep it from destroying all that is western."

Not that there are a lot of Hungarian Jihadists but if there were I am sure you would question a government that issued threats to you and your family because some Hungarians where Jihadists. And then perhaps you would question whether or not your Hungarian Jihadist friends were more correct about the American government than you first considered.

So we need to do EVERYTHING? Even something as incredibly stupid and offensive as camps, torture, and stripping US citizens of their rights? If that is what it came down to then I would no longer consider this the America I was born in. Perhaps you should start to question if such an America is something worth saving.

My America, the one I currently live in, is definitely worth saving. Standing up to your stupidity is one of the simpliest ways of doing so.

>"You can not "resist" a nation that wishes to remove you. You guys had 1400 years to show something nice to the world and have only shown consistent blooshed and invasion."

As a legal citizen of the US I have the perfect right to resist the government that chooses to ignore my rights under the Constitution. That is why the 2nd Amendment is in there.

The stupidity that stands behind a statement that blames a person for their heritage is astounding. In the same vein that I am not responsible for whatever Indian massacre you choose to name, a Muslim is not responsible for every atrocity done in the name of Islam.

My uncle is a Iranian Cardiologist who now lives as a legal US citizen. He is 70+ years old and now travels to disaster locations and offers his services (Katrina, Gulf Coast, Bam, Sri Lanka). What have you done lately?

>"You would be shown the door in a most consistent manner and I find it repugnant that you would even try to stay and "resist", good luck on that attempt."

Yes, how dare a citizen of the US exercise their rights under the Constitution. Perhaps you could show me the Mob Rule version you seem to be basing your ramblings on?

>"There is no other nationality, religion, or political group that has caused so much misery, consternation, murder, and enslavement of other peoples as islam so you should be ashamed of your statements."

This is the same stupid statement that the anti-American crowd likes to use. It's stupid when they use it and you have certainly taken it to a new height.

Once again, I have met great, moderate Muslims and I have met fanatics. Like most religious groups you have your good and bad apples. Gee, it is almost like they are human or something.

>"Go buy "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam", but you wont, and you will see an eye opening review of your peaceful religion."

Religion is what you make it. Islam, as it is written, is not tolerant, egalitarian, or peaceful. Some Muslims have turned the teachings of Mohammed inward and have found great strength from it. Others take the teachings of Mohammed as an excuse to perform horrible acts and then to believe them to be holy. Others are like many Christians, they go about there day to day business with a lot more on their minds than religion.

You see, here in America I can believe anything I wish as long as I don't physically force myself on others. You don't have to listen to me and you certainly do not have the right to "show me the door" if you do not agree with me. In fact, I have the right to blow a big hole in your head if you attempt to knock down my door to do so.

Or perhaps you believe America only belongs to people you like? Sorry. You are not only monumentally stupid but you are incredibly uneducated on what this country is all about as well.

Now go back and read what I wrote dummy but first, put down the crack pipe.

Sigh...
Where are you people coming up with this stuff?

>"What would you do? Would you consider this to be neutral behavior. Would agitating for shuria justice to supplement or replace secular law be wrong? Would toleration of those who advocate the overthrow of the US government be considered toleration?"

Okay. Raising money for a terrorist group is illegal right? All I can say, not being a Muslim, is that this is highly unlikely. I, at least, teach my children how special the land of their birth is as well as teaching them their rights.

I am quite intolerant of those who advocate overthrowing the government. Those who ACTUALL work towards that end will run afoul of the government and get what they deserve.

Mere words are protected speech. It is the action that should bring the hammer down.

>"Whever I hear about Islamic moderates I always consider that the Japanese when placed in the camps decided to prove their loyalty and formed the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the most decorated unit of WWII. And I contrast this to the actions of moderate Islam and see?"

With at least 4000 Muslims in the US military I see any reason to question their loyalty.

As for the Japanese, I am glad you can see the silver lining in throwing an entire ethnic group into camps. No doubt they didn't feel any sort of coersion considering their families remained in the camps while they were under the watchful eye of Uncle Sam.

I prefer those who fight without holding their families hostage. Is this the type of noble behaviour you are condoning in the face of Muslim terrorism and aggression? If so, tell me how we would be any different.

I hold this country to a high standard and I am not about to give that away because I am afraid. Our citizens are our greatest resource and no citizen should be forced into camps.

>"To be fair there are always people who are fence sitters. But the hottest place in hell is reserved for these."

That's fair? Condemnation in hell is fair? Whew! I would hate to hear what unfair is! Luckily I am an atheist so nothing is going to happen to me.

Once again, as an American citizen you have the perfect right not to comment on anything you want just as much as you have the right to spout off about anything you want.

Camps and torture for Muslims is a stupid idea. It would validate all the stupid things said by Muslim states, liberals, and Roy.

You write so much and say nothing.
I never did any type of drug so that was just pointless. I barely even drink.
I can write better than you, but pretending to work in my cubicle and watching my boss walk by causes my finger to stray a bit so get over it.
You and your uncle probably killed more people than helped in the medical field as muslims are not of great renown in the medical field. They are great cabbies.
My dog was born here in the US, but that does not make him a US citizen, he just hangs out here.
If you read more sources than the NYT you would realize Christians are killed and kidnapped on a random basis and have no freedoms as muslims do here in the west.
If you were more coherent than I would not had made a mistake, but as I said, I have a job.
You ask me what I have done?
I was in social services for 6 years before moving to the insurance field so I know how to help youth and regularly paid expenses out of my pocket without asking for reimbursement. I give constantly to disabled vets, NYC widows-orphans, and volunteer for homeless-youth programs.
Now tell your cabdriver uncle to stop acting like a doctor and put down the bandaid.
P.S. Islime sucks.
Remember, not all muslims are terrorists, but all captured terrorists seem to be muslims. Why is that???
Learn how to write properly Mr. GED.

I must write above the sixth grade level then...
>"I never did any type of drug so that was just pointless. I barely even drink."

At least I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't know such ignorance was natural.

>"I can write better than you, but pretending to work in my cubicle and watching my boss walk by causes my finger to stray a bit so get over it."

Seems like you pretend to write better as well. I am in the same situation. Next time take the time to read what you write first. Just some helpful advice if you really wish to be taken seriously.

>"You and your uncle probably killed more people than helped in the medical field as muslims are not of great renown in the medical field. They are great cabbies."

You have gone from misguided patriot to ignorant racist. Please show me the source of your stupidity as provide a link to the study that shows that Muslims are not good doctors. And actually, they suck at being cabbies.

>"My dog was born here in the US, but that does not make him a US citizen, he just hangs out here."

So Muslims are comparable to dogs? Thus the spiral goes ever deeper...

>"If you read more sources than the NYT you would realize Christians are killed and kidnapped on a random basis and have no freedoms as muslims do here in the west."

I absolutely know this. This is why our country is better: we give rights to everyone regardless of religion. I am sure that you would ban those religions you dislike, mainly all the non-Christian ones.

>"If you were more coherent than I would not had made a mistake, but as I said, I have a job."

First it was your boss, then it was my fault, and now it is because of your job. Ever consider you're just an ignorant *******?

>"You ask me what I have done? I was in social services for 6 years before moving to the insurance field so I know how to help youth and regularly paid expenses out of my pocket without asking for reimbursement. I give constantly to disabled vets, NYC widows-orphans, and volunteer for homeless-youth programs."

All that and you still find time to be a racist bigot. Good show!

Although it does explain the slimy feeling I get by talking to you. Insurance salesmen are but one step above a lawyer and two steps below an amoeba.

>"Now tell your cabdriver uncle to stop acting like a doctor and put down the bandaid. P.S. Islime sucks."

Islime sucks indeed. What a fitting example of your stupidity to add to the idiotic, bigoted sentence before it.

>"Remember, not all muslims are terrorists, but all captured terrorists seem to be muslims. Why is that???"

Because that is their religion stupid. That is why I don't mind profiling as per my initial post. In your rush to rant you never even read my first post.

I have stated many times before that Islam has a huge problem that they must deal with if they are to be a part of a civilized, global economy.

I will not become the enemy to fight the enemy.

>"Learn how to write properly Mr. GED."

By all means, point out every one of my errors and we can compare who is more difficult to read Mr. Islime.

Again, you say nothing.
I am closing on a policy now so I have to go.
Someone on this website has to pay taxes while you blog all day.
P.S. You want evidence of a good muslim doctor?
That is your burden of proof and not mine so look yourself.

JOKE OF THE DAY:

What is the difference between a dead dog on the road and a dead muslim on the road?
There are skid marks in front of the dog.
Good day to you muslim lover.

Inability to read = nothing said
>"I am closing on a policy now so I have to go."

Damn shame that.

>"Someone on this website has to pay taxes while you blog all day."

I thought the sentence was "Someone has to steal from old people by selling them a variable life policy while you blow away my racist, bigoted screeds."

>"P.S. You want evidence of a good muslim doctor? That is your burden of proof and not mine so look yourself."

I guess you are not educated in debate either. When you say Muslims are not known to be good doctors that put the burden of proof on you.

My uncle would characterize himself as a charitable American Cardiologist who was born in Iran and is quite content to pay his taxes regularly. While you seem to be a very angry skinhead who sells insurance.

>"JOKE OF THE DAY"

It is nice to see that you are not ashamed to showcase your bigotry. You even use the standard joke to point out that you possess no real sense of humor unless it targets a minority.

Once again, good show!

You proved you are not an American so shut up.
Nobody born and bred here in the USA uses "good show" as an expression. We say good day, goodbye, or later dude.
You sound like a European or islimer (even though you deny it) to bark out that phrase.

Thanks for not saying where you "work" even though I gave out my information.
I dont rip off people. I provide a financial service.
What do your provide?
You will not say because you are a coward, a leftie, a muslim apologist, and a racist to all that is American.

Torture? Who said anything about torture?
Did I ever say death camps?

Did I ever suggest routine torture?

I suggested that if you have them by the b@lls, their hearts and minds will follow. The way to get them by the family jewels is to give the President the authority to detain or deport Muslims. Yes, this does mean threatening the freedoms of non-Jihadist Muslims. I think it is justified. They are sitting on the fence between genocidal madmen who seek to destroy all that is not of the ummah by slaughtering civillians on a massive scale and America; the land of freedom and opportunity for all, including Muslims. This is not a choice any rational person has to think twice about.

More importantly, as corpse after corpse piles up as moderate Muslims who speak out are silenced, it is clear that moderate Muslims already have a gun to their heads. We need a credible threat to keep them in line. Only by giving the President the authority to detain Muslims in camps (not death or torture camps, just detention camps like the Japanese faced in WWII,) or to deport them can we achieve this sort of credible threat.

P.S. I am not actally against torture in a lot of cases, but torture without purpose is sort of useless. In kidnapping and terrorism cases, it seems like a perfectly legitimate tactic to me, as well as in warfare.

salient point
"More importantly, as corpse after corpse piles up as moderate Muslims who speak out are silenced, it is clear that moderate Muslims already have a gun to their heads."


It's unfortunate that your friend of Iranian extraction doesnt understand that in war, fair is a like expecting a spiderweb to hold you from falling off a cliff.

Humans make rough calls in war, he is expecting Americans to remain civilised after even one more attack like 9/11?

He's fooling himself. "moderate muslims" IF they exist, should realize thier dear brothers will NOT let them fence sit, nor will smarting Americans WHEN we get hit agian here, decisions will be made, he may decide that the jihadis were right after all and join them simply becasue America doesnt act like it does to simple crime, the constitutution in this country goes out the window during war, it did during the civil war & WWII, it will again after the next attack.

The ONLY thing that will save the masses of muslims here from internment or worse, is to become ACTIVE in hunting evil MUZI.

the active participation of citizen muslims is THE ONLY THING that can stop the next attack. We cannot stop terrorests forever, its impossible, we can only eradicate the source and that will mean doing things considered uncivilised. It WILL be done before this is all over, the MUZI are begging for annialation from strong leaders who have yet to be picked.

This is the sort of response that gives me pause
Most of the Japanese who volunteeered for the 442nd were Hawaii born Nisei whose families were not interned. In one of the paradoxes of the war, the Japanese in the most likely invasion area, Hawaii were never interned. The motives for interning the Japanese on the West coast, which was at best improbable as an invasion target makes the decision at best, suspect.

So your comment regarding cohesion is at best despictable, at worst ignorant. Most Americans who are Muslims are not Arabs so let's not mix apples and oranges here. Apparently you think that in a war fence sitting is an aceeptable position. It does nothing to convince me or allay my suspicions nor I daresay of the American public. Would you be any less confident if you saw an ouytbreak of violence against Muslims in the US and I claimed neutrality?

I have never advocated camps or torture for anyone not completely deserving of such treatment so anything that was done to the Japanese should serve as an example of what not to do. On the other hand, the behavior of the Japanese in the face of this sort of treatment should serve as a model for what behavior should be.

Fence sitting doesn't hack it.

Beware of ALL Germans if they are bombed.......
on the scale of 9-11. The world will see Germany and all its political parties UNIFY IN 1 VOICE and unleash a vengeance on all muslims in the Fatherland not seen since the time of the Roman Empire. Germans are all German when attacked and will always defend their people and culture, political correctness and Euro thinking be damned. Watch and we will see them reclassify islam from a religion to a hostile, political organization and begin mass deportations-politiely-back to their ancestral homelands which is where all muslims belong.
Europe for Europeans, Asia for Asians, etc, etc.
God made lands for all His people and all this senseless immigration is the reason we have the horrendous and nightmarish conditions of today.
Muslims do not wish or will ever desire to be assimilated into any non-islamic nation on this planet.
They desire to live as muslims in a non-islamic state with the eventual intent of transforming the host nation into a muslim state. Their koran says so, their culture says so and no infidel government can tell them otherwise.
This mentality and history is why all muslims must be gently encouraged (preferably within 10-12 months time) to go back home.
Their bloody history of 14 centuries shows the world that they can not change so they must go home as they refuse to adopt our values.
Go home and good luck to you people in your new lives.

Pure American. Sad to hear you are one to.
>"Nobody born and bred here in the USA uses "good show" as an expression. We say good day, goodbye, or later dude."

Thanks for tellin' a 'Mer'can how'a 'Mer'can talks. Proud to be born and raised in this great country. Your lack of command over your native tongue in no way indicates my nationality.

>"You sound like a European or islimer (even though you deny it) to bark out that phrase."

Does the crushing weight of your stupidity and your bigoted ideology depend on my nationality? I believe you would be considered an idiot in anyone's land.

Perhaps you would like to go back to the point?

>"Thanks for not saying where you "work" even though I gave out my information. I dont rip off people. I provide a financial service."

Sorry for not trusting random bigots with my personal information on the internet. But I did look into a career as an insurance peddler and know much about the many ways to rip people off and pretend they are "building their future". Don't get me wrong, everyone needs insurance and I am sure that you are upright and moral. You are, after all, white and Christian and that means good and pure right?

>"What do your provide?"

Data. Very good data.

>"You will not say because you are a coward, a leftie, a muslim apologist, and a racist to all that is American."

The only thing I am out of that list is a "leftie". Can you tell by the way I type? Are you left-handed too?

BTW: Americans are not a "race". You are being as stupid as the Muslims who cry "racism" all the time. Americans are a conglomeration of a lot of people who had to leave, or were forced to leave, their homelands in order to be successful.

But I have wasted enough of your time trying to educate you. Run along now so you don't miss your Aryan Brotherhood meeting.

An attempt to clarify...
>"Most of the Japanese who volunteeered for the 442nd were Hawaii born Nisei whose families were not interned. In one of the paradoxes of the war, the Japanese in the most likely invasion area, Hawaii were never interned. The motives for interning the Japanese on the West coast, which was at best improbable as an invasion target makes the decision at best, suspect."

Consider me corrected.

>"So your comment regarding cohesion is at best despictable, at worst ignorant.

Like I said, consider me corrected. I am sure they felt no coercion to prove their loyalties.

>"Most Americans who are Muslims are not Arabs so let's not mix apples and oranges here.

Did you not say "Muslims"? They followers of Islam? That is not making any distinctions. If you want to make that distinction now that is fine. My statements apply equally.

>"Apparently you think that in a war fence sitting is an aceeptable position."

Absolutely acceptable. We can not wage a war on our own people. Any US citizen has the right to their positions and that is what we are fighting to preserve. Unless, of course, there is a draft. Then you gotta go. Otherwise the government has no right to force you to adopt any position.

>"It does nothing to convince me or allay my suspicions nor I daresay of the American public."

And no citizen has the duty to convince you, or the American public, of anything. If one Muslim decides to speak out and say they are opposed to terrorism they have that right. If another Muslim decides to remain silent they to have that same right.

That being said, I as a non-Muslim, am free and within my rights to view with suspicion those Muslims around me. Awareness is one of the best defenses you can have.

>"Would you be any less confident if you saw an ouytbreak of violence against Muslims in the US and I claimed neutrality?"

Confident of what? I would not mind if you remained silent on attacks on Muslims. That is your right. It is not your right to attack Muslims physically but you can definitely say whatever you wish about them.

I don't know how much more I can clarify this.

>"I have never advocated camps or torture for anyone not completely deserving of such treatment so anything that was done to the Japanese should serve as an example of what not to do. On the other hand, the behavior of the Japanese in the face of this sort of treatment should serve as a model for what behavior should be."

Publius started this thing about camps, Dietmar brought up the torture and you commented on it thus injecting yourself into the conversation.

Just because some Japanese-Americans decided to give up their rights and accept imprisionment doesn't mean that they are the model of how one should accept such a loss. If you are just talking about the Japanese who entered the military then fine.

The camp mentality and the "prove yourself" mentality is a way of thinking I find abhorrent.

>"Fence sitting doesn't hack it."

Neither does taking away the rights of US citizens. They have a right to sit on the fence and I have the right to be suspicious of their fence-sitting.

We do not have the right to force them off that fence.

The answer lies inside...
>"Did I ever say death camps?"

Did I?

>"Did I ever suggest routine torture?"

Dietmar did. And your last paragraph suggests you are not too far from that position. I am against torture and so far the American military has shared my view.

>"This is not a choice any rational person has to think twice about."

Does not the very definition of "rational" indicates a person who thinks before action?

Think about what you are saying. You wish to imprision a section of a population due to their religious affiliations. You wish to imprision "these people" because they do not wish to involve themselves at all with the insane members of their religion.

Does that sound like the Land of the Free to you? It would simply be justification for every liberal, leftist, and Islamofascist group that, at the start, doesn't need such justification to be anti-American.

I am all about the NSA and the Patriot Act. Those measures give the power to those investigative elements that require it. They do not uproot people in the night and haul them to a camp.

That is what fascists do and we are not fascists.

You talk about a "credible threat". What kind of "credible threat" exists for those you are targetting? Terrorists and Jihadists do not care for life or freedom so I don't believe this plan targets the ones who are actually committing these atrocities.

You are simply suggesting the punishment of someone for sharing a religion or ethnicity with cowardly terrorists. Does that fall in line with your concept of justice?

Let me educate you Mustafa.
How come you are so nervous about at least saying a job industry you practice? I am OK to tell, but you are not?
You again are a coward and a hypocrite.
YOUR RACE are the bigots, sexists, racists so dont tell me I am evil.
Your kind still to this today use slavery openly, beat and kill gays, discriminate Africans-just ask the Sudanese-, and dont allow Christians to testify in islamic courts!!!
Tell me again who is twisted and wrong here?!?
I know American history very well as I am first generation.
America is a political identity and I know not a nationality identity as German or Irish.
America was discovered and built by EUROPEAN immigrants since the first settlers came here and carved out cities and industry from rock and forest.
Most of those Europeans died within the first winter from starvation, disease, war and other painful ends.
What were your people doing in 1492??
Raping and defecating on the remnants of Constantinople and forcing Columbus to find a new trade route to the east as you muslims closed the routes since overrunning Constantinople. Peaceful religion indeed.
Funny, there are no islamic names in our history or on our Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress, etc.
There are only islamic names on our FBI watchlists.
Proud accomplishments to openly display.
We built this nation and now you people are blowing it up.
I am very aware of our history and well-informed of the islamic nature.
Dont try to be BS me. Your mind is much too small muslim.

Nice to see the fascist point of view...
>"It's unfortunate that your friend of Iranian extraction doesnt understand that in war, fair is a like expecting a spiderweb to hold you from falling off a cliff."

I am not Iranian. My uncle is. I am about as white as a Norwegian/Irish boy can be.

I am not talking about a "fair" war either. I am talking about preserving the rights of US citizens. You know, that Constitution thingy that protects your ass from getting put into a camp?

>"Humans make rough calls in war, he is expecting Americans to remain civilised after even one more attack like 9/11?"

I absolutely expect Americans to remain civilized. If we are really fighting the battle for civilization, which we are, then it is imperative that we show ourselves to be better than the cowardly terrorist that wishes to drag us back into the Dark Ages.

Throwing people into camps is beneath our ideals. At least it should be.

>"He's fooling himself."

Who is the fool? The one who believes us to be the Great Satan or the one who proves that belief?

You seem be saying that the crimes of the past are to be repeated. The Constitution is not meant to "go out the window" during times of war. While the Constitution has clauses within it that apply to war, you had best be sure that such clauses are used wisely and minimally.

Otherwise nothing separates us from the barbarians. We don't fear and segregation. That is a loss from the very start. We need logic and willpower and rule of law to remain our best and to defeat the worst.

>"The ONLY thing that will save the masses of muslims here from internment or worse, is to become ACTIVE in hunting evil MUZI."

Your threats are pathetic and wrong-headed.

Our opportunity, freedoms, and open nature are not protected by threatening imprisionment. I would rather walk our talk than to descend into the moral quagmire your actions would bring about.

Your final paragraph sounds like something that would be said by a Nazi or Communist to condone the extermination of a "threat". A small step once you dehumanize people by placing them in camps.

What you suggest goes against every good thing I have ever seen in this country and I would oppose it every step of the way.

Thanks for the education in Hysterical History 101
>"Tell me again who is twisted and wrong here?!?"

Ummm... you? Definitely you.

>"YOUR RACE are the bigots, sexists, racists so dont tell me I am evil."

Hmmm... that sounds like any race.

>"Your kind still to this today use slavery openly, beat and kill gays, discriminate Africans-just ask the Sudanese-, and dont allow Christians to testify in islamic courts!!!"

Could you fill me on on how the Norwegians and Irish have a hand in all of this Mr. History? I didn't know they had such pull down at the Islamic courthouse.

>"America was discovered and built by EUROPEAN immigrants"

Actually, my relatives, the Norwegians "discovered" North America first. Also the descendants of those immigrants wrote a little something I like to call the Constitution that opened the country to any immigrant who wished to come over. It even granted something that is called "inalienable rights".

Read it and tell me how the whole "camp" thing plays against it.

>"What were your people doing in 1492??"

Certainly not wiping out the indigenous peoples of North America that's for sure. They were mostly being oppressed by the English in Ireland and farming in Norway.

>"I am very aware of our history and well-informed of the islamic nature."

I will let your own words speak truth to that statement.

Just look at the racism and ignorance that abounds in your written words. I am tempted to lie and admit that I am a Muslim in order to simply be placed in opposition from you.

I hate to admit that such stupidity is born of my great country but there it is. You would simply destroy "those people's" lives, the lives of US citizens, in order to save America. Let me tell you a little secret Mr. History, the name of America doesn't mean **** if the values and freedoms are not protected.

Our battle is tougher because we possess the higher moral ground. Any idiot can cart people off to camps and base judgement on a person's religion, ethnicity, or culture. You are a good example of this moronic human tendency.

I prefer to keep the higher moral ground and fight from there. Anything else would be the forfeiture of everything that America stands for in my eyes.

To troll or not to troll...
>"God made lands for all His people and all this senseless immigration is the reason we have the horrendous and nightmarish conditions of today."

So the taking of the land from the natives found in North and South America was because God didn't really give that land to them?

As for the "senseless immigration", do you see immigrants as disobeying the word of God? I mean, God didn't mean for humans to reach out to others did he?

You would be surprised how alike you sound to a Muslim fanatic when your words are taken out of context. Hell, even in context your words are pretty scary.

your heart is in the right place
But you're unrealistic.

And uneducated about recent history.

The japanese internments in WWII were NOT a moral failure no matter the prevailing lies told. They were NOT a security failure either, they were 100% sucessful.

On the west coast almost no cases of sabotage, on the east coast where American citizens of German & Italian birth and decent were first encarcerated then released, there were thousands of cases of sabotage to the point the US government went (successfuly) to the mafia to protect the docks and ships.

On the other hand the west coast internments themselves were a mixed bag, the camps were like summer vacation cottages, the guards congenial, the food good, the discipline light.

I have heard/read NO alligations of ANY abuse in these camps.

The property left untended was vandelised and stolen, lands under morgage went under, this was WRONGLY handled.
ALL properties of internees should have been protected 100%, including a way to handle mortgages without hurting the lenders or borrowers.


So, get off the mindless tack of recent lies told as history, get grip on what REALLY stressed out populations do to defend themselves and get off the cartoon view of America, in the end it wont serve you and IT WILL leave you disapointed. After all, serious historical president exists for disapointing you if your last post is any indication.

Huh?
At least in the US, as a moderate Muslim, I have the ability to ignore the words and deeds of the ass-clowns who happen to belong to my religion. Fence-sitting never was and never should be a crime. Just as many a Christian ignores the words of Pat Robertson.

Huh? I vehemently disagree with Pat Roberton on many things, agree just as strongly on others and at times right and wrong find him not to measure his words carefully.

On the other hand, I have never heard him call for worldwide conquest, coerced conversions or violence of any kind.

Your comparison fails.





Can you read?
>"Huh? I vehemently disagree with Pat Roberton on many things, agree just as strongly on others and at times right and wrong find him not to measure his words carefully."

But should be judged on his pronouncements? If you are a Christian should you be judged by all the crimes committed in Jesus' name? I don't think so and that was my point.

>"On the other hand, I have never heard him call for worldwide conquest, coerced conversions or violence of any kind."

Really? I suppose suggesting the assassination of Hugo Chavez isn't violence of any kind? I suppose his statements concerning the smiting of Sharon in Israel or purging New Orleans by flood come across as statements of love and hope?

Silly me, I thought Christians believed that judgement was the purview of God, not Pat Robertson. His intolerance of non-Christians makes him a perfect example of a religious leader who spreads fear and division amongst his followers.

But you can throw him out if you wish. It was merely an example of lumping humans together by religion and you proved it perfectly with this line: "I vehemently disagree with Pat Roberton".

You don't believe there is a majority of Muslims who say the same thing about their wacko leaders? Believe me, if we faced a majority of Muslims who wished to start a world war we would have an immediate uprising on all continents... except Antarctica of course.

As I said, you shouldn't be judged by who belongs to your religion and neither should any US citizen.

The usual double standrads ....
'The govt can profile me all day as a Hungarian"

We know you're a Hungarian, Heavy! (except when you claim to be a born and BRED American!) Never let a day go by without mentioning your heritage! And we know how, by some psycho-babble 'race memory', you have suffered at the hands of Muslims, albeit hundreds of years ago. I would mention the history of anti-semitism in Hungary and the great lengths that Hungarian collaborators (and fence-sitters?) went to deport Jews to the death camps, but I won't stoop to the level of tarring a whole people with the same brush!
As a matter of interest, could you provide evidence that all your relatives were resistance-fighters during the Hungarian occupation and personally saved as many Jews as possible during the Holocaust? If not, I don't suppose you'd mind them being banged up for 'fence-sitting'?

"Europe for Europeans, Asia for Asians, etc, etc."
Hungarians for Hungarians? Do us the honour of being the first example. The Americas for Native Americans ... etc etc ... ad nauseum

"God made lands for all His people and all this senseless immigration is the reason we have the horrendous and nightmarish conditions of today."

The nightmarish conditions of Hungarian 'invaders' trying to be more American than Americans?!

"You [Tlaloc] proved you are not an American so shut up." How did Tlaoc 'prove' it? By disagreeing with you? All non-Americans should shut up? How very ...erm ... un-American?

Hey kids! You get to go to camp!
>"But you're unrealistic."

Unrealistic in believing in my rights, and the rights of all US citizens, under the Constitution?

>"And uneducated about recent history."

Let's travel down this road together then.

>"The japanese internments in WWII were NOT a moral failure no matter the prevailing lies told. They were NOT a security failure either, they were 100% sucessful."

100% successful in uprooting whole families. Perhaps you can tell me how that jives with your morality. Did not a court rule that such a thing was unconstitutional and did not the government have to pay them restitution?

Like I said, why revisit the crimes of the past? Are we not better now than we were then? I would like to think so.

>"On the west coast almost no cases of sabotage, on the east coast where American citizens of German & Italian birth and decent were first encarcerated then released, there were thousands of cases of sabotage to the point the US government went (successfuly) to the mafia to protect the docks and ships."

Hmmm... so incarceration is justified because a different group of immigrants were not incarcerated and forced the US government to work with a criminal organization?

I have yet to see evidence of massive sabotage on the Pacific Coast that brought about the policy. Why? Because it was pre-emptive. Basically the Japanese were never given the opportunity to be criminals because they were all convicted as criminals before the sabotage could occur.

That sounds suspiciously like a violation of their rights under the Constitution. It was a crime and should be recorded as such.

>"On the other hand the west coast internments themselves were a mixed bag, the camps were like summer vacation cottages, the guards congenial, the food good, the discipline light."

A golden cage is still a cage. Not to mention the loss of their property and businesses. This is about the most idiotic of all the comments I have seen today. Equivication of forced removal to camps to summer vacation is grotesque in the extreme.

>"I have heard/read NO alligations of ANY abuse in these camps."

Except for the fact that a whole immigrant class was forcibly removed from their homes and forced to live behind barbwire and gaurds. Yep. The only abuse was the assault on their rights.

>"The property left untended was vandelised and stolen, lands under morgage went under, this was WRONGLY handled.
ALL properties of internees should have been protected 100%, including a way to handle mortgages without hurting the lenders or borrowers."

At least you understand that these people were stolen from. By all means, take away a person's freedom for being of the wrong ethnic group but don't you dare touch their property. I am glad you take such a strong stand for individual rights.

>"So, get off the mindless tack of recent lies told as history, get grip on what REALLY stressed out populations do to defend themselves and get off the cartoon view of America, in the end it wont serve you and IT WILL leave you disapointed. After all, serious historical president exists for disapointing you if your last post is any indication."

So your goal is to act like a "REALLY stressed out population"? How noble of you.

One of the points learned at the end of WWII was that paranoid herding of people into camps based on religion and without due process should never happen again.

As for disappointment: I would agree with you. It would seem that the fear that compels a people to ignore the individual's right to fair treatment is still alive and well.

But I am an optimist who believes in the values this country was founded on. Those very same values that appeal to the millions who wish to come here. Those very same values that I refuse to give up.

Don't get me wrong, I know the nature of our Islamofascist enemy, I just refuse to convict every Muslim in the US of being the enemy. The camp idea, no matter how luxurious, is immoral.

Drawing the line
I draw the line between combatants captured on the battlefield and American citizens, unless they bear arms against the US. Even then US citizens have certain rights, illegal combatants have the right to a quick execution and all that accompanies that. If you have a problem with that I suggest a letter to the NY Times.

I do not advocate treatments such as the Japanese received. I understand your sentiments and I hope you can understand that any individual who reserves the priviledge of remaining neutral when this country is at war should neither expect the sympathy nor protection of his fellow citizens since they have the right "to remain neutral," as well.

I am sure the members of the 442nd would love to hear your opinion that they risked life and limb because someone was threatening them. I mean I can't imagine a more reasonable course of behavior than to defend a country that has stolen everything you strived and sacrificed for than to demonstrate your loyalty. In contrast we have your position. It asks for respect where it tenders none. DSo there we have it the 442nd on one side and CAIR on the other.

Based on your arguments I remain unimpressed. I am sure though you could go on a speaking tour and find unethusiastic audiences for your position among the Roy and Erics of this world.

Im not going to touch the points because:
"As for disappointment: I would agree with you. It would seem that the fear that compels a people to ignore the individual's right to fair treatment is still alive and well."


THIS IS REALITY, all the rest of your post is wishful thinking, it does NOT reflect reality.
You can pontifacate all you want about what was done wrongingly in the last WW, it makes as much difference as drunks in the bar arguing about touchdowns, the call remains the same.


make aspersions against the morals of my position all you want, in the end MY methods wil be used BECAUSE THEY WORK.

Yours will be used until its obvious to the voting stupid they dont work.

Draw away...
>"I draw the line between combatants captured on the battlefield and American citizens, unless they bear arms against the US. Even then US citizens have certain rights, illegal combatants have the right to a quick execution and all that accompanies that."

I have no problem with this at all. But we are not talking about illegal combatants in Gitmo, we are talking about US citizens.

>"I do not advocate treatments such as the Japanese received. I understand your sentiments and I hope you can understand that any individual who reserves the priviledge of remaining neutral when this country is at war should neither expect the sympathy nor protection of his fellow citizens since they have the right "to remain neutral," as well."

One does not have to "reserve" a priviledge to remain neutral. One receives this priviledge when they follow the immigration laws and become citizens.

And one can remain neutral on any topic they wish. However, that person is afforded the protection of the US government no matter what position they take. If my fellow citizens take actions against me I am within my rights to protect myself and to expect the protection of those government employees charged with my protection no matter what those employees believe.

Perhaps you would like to clarify your statement so you don't sound like you are condoning illegal behaviour. Perhaps you believe a good lynching is in order?

>"I am sure the members of the 442nd would love to hear your opinion that they risked life and limb because someone was threatening them."

And I am sure I don't care what their opinion is. I wonder how it would feel to see members of your ethnicity jailed on the mainland. Perhaps I would feel that I needed to do something to prove my loyalty...

It in no way takes away their honorable service. I am just pointing out one scenario and I am sure that you have no idea what was really going on in their heads when they made that choice.

>"I mean I can't imagine a more reasonable course of behavior than to defend a country that has stolen everything you strived and sacrificed for than to demonstrate your loyalty."

This makes no sense. I thought you said they weren't put in camps.

>"In contrast we have your position. It asks for respect where it tenders none."

I did not ask for respect of their position. You have the right to disrespect them all you wish. What I was asking for was for them to be treated according to the US Constitution as any law-abiding citizen should expect.

Unless you believe, like some of the nimrods here, that the Constitution only applies to Christian white people.

>"DSo there we have it the 442nd on one side and CAIR on the other."

So now the real test of loyalty is military service? If so then that leaves a whole bunch of Americans who are disloyal to this country. Have you served? If not, are you any less an American than those who have?

BTW: CAIR is a joke. They won't even recognize the problem that festers within their own ranks. They are anti-Semetic and seem unable to find enough morality to condemn terrorists or even to use that word. And yet, they to are entitled to hold that position and be safe from governmental retaliation. Even the neo-***** can speak their filth freely.

>"Based on your arguments I remain unimpressed."

And I remain sad that you can somehow find virtue in ignoring the rights of lawful citizens. Very unAmerican.

>"I am sure though you could go on a speaking tour and find unethusiastic audiences for your position among the Roy and Erics of this world."

I am sure that they would be unenthusiastic since I am not anti-war and I think Bush has done a great job protecting this nation and energizing our economy.

Just because I won't allow idiots to blather on about threatening and locking up large sections of the US population based on paranoia does not mean that I am now a leftist.

I believe in freedom. Scary amounts of freedom. What you suggest goes against everything that Americans stand for. I would rather live in a dangerous, free world than a safe, unfree world.

Because you can't.
>"THIS IS REALITY, all the rest of your post is wishful thinking, it does NOT reflect reality."

Mental note to self: equal protection under the Constitution no longer has a basis in reality.

Thanks for pointing that out but the last time I checked the Constitution and Bill of Rights were still in effect.

>"You can pontifacate all you want about what was done wrongingly in the last WW, it makes as much difference as drunks in the bar arguing about touchdowns, the call remains the same."

The call remains the same? You mean the Chicago Bears still suck?

None of this debating on a forum makes any difference. You pointing it out makes even less of a difference. This is what is known as the digital equivalent of holding your hands over your ears so as not to hear an opposing viewpoint.

>"make aspersions against the morals of my position all you want, in the end MY methods wil be used BECAUSE THEY WORK."

No sane individual will be stupid enough to implement your utterly stupid idea. Although I must agree that your methods have shown themselves to be grimly efficient. Why, just take a look at that successful Stalin guy. Or maybe it was that Hitler guy. Or maybe that Pol Pot guy. You have to admit, those guys were pretty damn effective.

Perhaps we shouldn't emulate the wonderful ideas of people who created so much death and misery.

Your methods will not be used and I will fight such ignorance where ever and when ever I can.

so you are equating FDR with pol pot & stalin?
your idiocy is showing.

Is that you got out of that?
FDR didn't exterminate the Japanese but he certainly committed a crime against them. That judgement is not just mine either.

That is one of the reasons I have a problem with the anti-war crowd who squeal about the loss of there freedoms. FDR did so much more that was blatantly un-Constitutional that Bush doesn't even hold a candle to him. But as a liberal icon FDR is beyond reproach.

There we were fighting the forces of fascism and he pulled one of the most fascist moves in American history. It continues to be a shameful episode of our history and one we should all learn from.

Once you dehumanize and segregate a part of your society the "final solution" to that problem is not far off. FDR avoided that because we won WWII.

You 2 are mentally challenged.
My ancestors did not save any Jewish people in their time as they were too busy dodging British bombs by day and US bombs by night. They were facing death for 4 years on a daily basis and nobody was trying to help them...does that mean anything to you?
What do Jews have to do with me or muslims?
My grandfather was killed on the Stalingrad front fighting the Russians in 1942 while you 2 and your ancestors at that time were doing what...?????? Sipping tea, eating crumpets, babbling over social issues of the British Empire?
Fill me in please cuz I have no idea.
Guess what, the Holocauast was a world-wide disaster and no nationality had a monopoly on the numbers of dead.
If you 2 Harvard professors would like to know there are now roughly estimated 42 million dead from WW 2 and that number is always being adjusted upward every year or so as more dead are always being unearthed from old battlefields.
I believe what I desire and no childish or snide remarks will change that reality.
As tlaoc or gloc would say "Good show".
Yes, all Americans here talk like that everyday.

AGAIN, you are wrong on basic history.
North America was empty except for the tribes who crossed over when Asia had a land bridge connecting into Alaska.
There were Indians here and yes they were mostly killed.
The tragic fact is that senseless wars kill and usually it is the innocent who die. The Europeans came here and built a nation and many natives were killed. If it makes you happy you should be aware many colonists were killed and died painful deaths those first few winters in the New World. Today, we have America and the largest economy due to their sacrifices and efforts. Remember, nearly every nation on this planet has been invaded, people killed, and horrible crimes committed so dont point out Europeans as the most sadistic here. You can look to the ME for those most extreme examples for today.
I dont know what human reaching out means as it sounds like more of a fragment sentence and not a full declaration.
I am talking about immigration and abuses, not being a missionary to the heathen.
If you dont like my statements, TOUGH!!!
I dont want to be politically correct, just morally correct and us common sense.
YOU are the scary one who makes common cause with muslims and than have the nerve to say "I am a great American"
Your definition of a good citizen and mine are different as day and night.

What's all this then?
I would make a comment on your facts or logic but you don't seem to like to employ them. You don't even seem to like to stay on topic. Oh well.

I believe your remark says it all:

>"I believe what I desire and no childish or snide remarks will change that reality."

Perhaps you should ponder the relationship between "believing what you desire" and reality. It would seem that truth and fact doesn't seem to play much of a role in bridging the two.

>"Yes, all Americans here talk like that everyday."

I am glad that we have you to monitor proper language use. It is my guess that you don't hang out around educated people too often.

Tally-ho, tut-tut and all that!

Good day to you sir and cheers!

Later dude.
Good luck on crunching those numbers.

perhaps FDR was right and you are wrong?
after all, he was an American president and icon.

and you are....................


Dont get me wrong, I believe FDR screwed the world by cuddling up to stalin.

He should have put Patton in charge and let him re-arm the germans like he suggested and push the russ all the way back to the artic circle where they belonged.


Im getting bored with this, your positions are irrational and are all about "the way it should be" which is childish.

try talking about things that ARE and things that WORK.
People that make things actualy work get tired of "yeah but it should be this way".

So many things you have said here just make no sense, I talk about FDRs gentile moves, you call me hitler, stalin & pol pot. This is also completely childish.

Its also endemic to the liberal mindset, childish over-compansation and exageration.


I think im done with this thread.

Saying it doesn't make it so.
Having a degree in Anthropology makes this line especially humorous:

>"North America was empty except for the tribes who crossed over when Asia had a land bridge connecting into Alaska."

Yes. Empty except for the people who lived here.

And then you brush away the dead Indians to complain about all the settlers who came over here too ill-prepared to deal with the environment. Whose dead are worth more?

The actual reason I brought them up in the first place is to illustrate that a person is not responsible for the sins of their ancestors. You condemn Muslims for causing death and misery but fail to acknowledge that all cultures have such dark episodes in their history, even the Indians and even us Americans.

You basically say the same thing but then you seem to believe that some massacres and land grabs are better than others. How quaint.

>"YOU are the scary one who makes common cause with muslims and than have the nerve to say "I am a great American"

Common cause? Is respecting the rights of American citizens now a crime in your eyes? Does it make me a bad American to except the religions of others? You make tolerance sound un-American.

And I would have to say that I am a much better American than you as I actually walk what I talk. You would throw the Constitution out the window to fit your paranoia and that is not the America I know. Hell, that's not even Mexico!

>"Your definition of a good citizen and mine are different as day and night."

Thanks be to Allah for that!

There is a limit
Unless things have changed one has to swear to uphold the Constitution against all enemies of it. One did not swear to remain neutral. If this is your view of what citizenship entails then you are not the kind of American this country needs and cannot be expected to defend it nor its citizens.

If you believe one has the right to remain neutral I'd love to see you sya you refuse to testify in court because you wish to remain neutral. Or as you have all ready said refrain from defending the nation. Sorry jow can one make such a pig headed statement as to say you should have the protection of those government employees that you refuse to support? The hipocracy of this statement is something that one expects from Roy or Eric. What I do believe is that there are nimrods out there who wave the race card when they think it serves them and insult others like the Japanese because they make Muslims look like third rate lossers whose rights matter only when they need someone to protect it for them. I have rarely seen such a bigoted comment as you have made regarding the Japanese and don't pretend you are unaware of how you attempted to spin it.

Having spent a number of years in the Middle East I have seen how Muslims treat other Muslims who aren't of the same tribe (define that as you wish). But it was neither brotherly nor respectful, nor humane. Having seen it before I can only say I have no respect for any group that believes their sworn oath are mere words to be discarded when the whim strikes them. It is such a Middle Eastern attitude, demonstrating exactly the kind of thinking that will destroy the US and its instituions.

Its like a achild who has murdered his parents who demands the rights due orphans. Go tell it to the Marines.

I hope you get to experience one of these summer camps for three or four years
First off just explain something to me about the internments for me ace. If the West coast was so threatened by invasion and sabotage that 120,000 Japanese had to be forced into camps, why was it that a larger number in the Hawaiian Islands who comprised over 50% of the population of those islands weren't interned? Certainly they would have had far more opportunity for sabotage and to assist the enemy being 3,000 miles closer to the enemy.

Now I am not sure about the way you and yours live but being placed in a race track stables doesn't constitue a summer vacation for me although it might for your family. I wouldn't be at a loss to characterize such a stay in any other way.

Now I am unaware of Mayor Laguardia being interned nor other Americans of Italian or German descent. While enemy aliens were detained this is not waht was done to Japanese who were citizens or who were denied the opportunity to become citizens by US law. Perhaps you can provide some examples of people like Joe DeMaggio being interned?

It might also interest you to know while idiots like FDR and Earl Warren couldn't wait to slam the Japanese into camps, FBI director Hoover warned against the move because there was no evidence of Japanese participation in sabotage that could justify such an action.

Let's hear it for the terrorist mouthpiece
Talk about double standards from the man who worships terrorists of any stripe.

TCS Daily Archives