TCS Daily


The Victory of September 11, 1565

By Paul J. Cella - September 11, 2006 12:00 AM

By the middle of the 16th century, the Knights of Malta had been for decades a particular irritation to the Sultan of the Empire of the Ottoman Turks, then the world's premier superpower and the imperial power of the Jihad. The Knights were skilled and cunning seamen: the Christian answer to the Barbary pirates whose razzias or jihadist raids had, literally for centuries, terrorized the coastal lands of southern Europe. These pirates were slavers and pillagers, terrors of the sea. How many "sick and sunless" captives were made by them, consigned to the filth and misery of the life of a galley oarsman, can only be conjectured. They made prisons of great oared ships; and the fate of their prisoners was one of wretchedness beyond reckoning. Athwart this menace stood the ancient Noble Order of St. John of Jerusalem. One historian (voicing a consensus of historians) gives them this honor: "in skill, seamanship, and fighting ability there was no single vessel in the Mediterranean that could compare with a galley commanded by one of the Knights from Malta."

The Knights had been founded during the First Crusade, and were for a long while known primarily as the Knights Hospitaller: their first ambition had been to aid the sick and weary among pilgrims to the Holy Land. And indeed much of the meaning of our word hospital derives from their tradition, which accomplished great advances in medical science, particularly on the problem of transmission of disease. By the 16th century the Knights had a solid understanding of the value of quarantines: their own galleys were among the cleanest in the world, owing in part to their practice of deliberately sinking and then retrieving them. But it was only later, well after the Crusading Age, that the order became an emphatically military one; and after the fall of the remnants of the Crusader Kingdoms, the order was forced to the sea, where it would thrive.

In that day the Turk was feared and respected the world over. His dominion extended from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean, from Austria to Baghdad; his principle of statesmanship was jihad. Imperial Spain under Charles V, distracted with her scattered territories across Europe and in the New World, dreaded war with Ottoman armies, and avoided it whenever possible. The Venetian commercial republic, possessed of the strongest fleet of all Christian powers, relied almost wholly on her subtle diplomacy and intrigues to maintain an uneasy peace with the Turks. The Arsenal at Venice, a great manufacturing center and augury of the incipient Capitalism that would soon conquer the world, could lay down the keel of a war galley in the morning and by nightfall launch a new ship of war, fully loaded with the best naval technology of the day. But Venice held her peace with the Turks dear, and was prepared to buy it at a steep price -- up to and including an indifference, some even alleged a betrayal of other Christian powers. Indeed, the Arsenal in Constantinople, a replica of that of Venice, had been built and was operated with indispensable aid from Venetian renegades. France, meanwhile, was a tacit ally of the Sultan; a judgment on her willingness to aid fellow Christians was rendered with concision by Chesterton in his magnificent poem "Lepanto": "the shadow of the Valois [the French royal house] is yawning at the mass." The Protestant revolution had unleashed dissension and civil war throughout the European continent. Christendom -- her always-tenuous unity finally shattered -- was in no mood for sustained confrontation with the Turk.

The Turk, on the other hand, was always in a mood for confrontation. It is to be doubted whether there was ever a more perfect wedding than that between the sons of Osman and the Islamic doctrine of jihad, or holy war: a doctrine which gave to conquest, plunder and subjugation -- the favorite pastimes of these proud nomads -- the radiance of piety. The Prophet Mohammad himself had enjoined his followers to take the capital city of the Roman Empire -- impenetrable Constantinople -- for Islam. This goal was not achieved -- and not for lack of effort -- for over seven hundred years, and it was achieved not by Mohammad's fellow Arabs but by Turks. Yet it was an achievement inspired and won by jihad; and with it came the final extinction of the Byzantine civilization that had endured in a wild and remorseless part of the world for over a thousand years. Later, the Conqueror of Constantinople, Sultan Mehmet II, made the destruction of the Knights Hospitaller a priority, but was rebuffed in this goal by this pesky seafaring order.

In 1522, young Suleiman the Magnificent, later to become perhaps the greatest of all sultans, with a force of 200,000 men and 400 ships ejected the Knights from the island of Rhodes -- but at an exorbitant price indeed: half his army ruined. Suleiman was an honorable man, though, and his respect for his adversary was deep and abiding. "It weighs on me somewhat," he said of the Hospitaller Grand Master, whom after a six-month siege he generously granted safe passage from the island, "that I should come thither to chase this ancient Christian warrior from his home." Some years later the Knights, with the help of the Pope and Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, acquired charter to the island of Malta, just south of the Spanish province of Sicily -- a shrewd location to establish a seafaring military order, but a grim and barren locale, much bleaker than their former lands on the lush island of Rhodes. From there they assailed Turkish shipping, contended with the Barbary pirates, and thus helped secure the western Mediterranean from the mastery to which Suleiman aspired.

In 1565 the Grand Master of the Knights was a Frenchmen of Gascony, Jean Parisot de la Valette by name, who was by then (like Sultan Suleiman himself) in his seventies, but still vigorous. Piety and military acumen were his leading virtues: he was the very model of the warrior-priest, a kind of throwback to a dying medieval age. The religious fervor of the Knights had of late diminished, much as the chivalric piety of the medieval age itself was dying, and many of them had become worldly, sensuous, and arrogant. But La Valette, when he became Grand Master, aimed to check this corruption. Ernle Bradford calls him, "that rarest of human beings, a completely single-minded man." His lieutenant was an Englishman, in exile from his homeland where Catholicism was proscribed; and it was this latter who decoded the reports from spies in Constantinople that the Turks were again massing against the Knights. The Order was the last vestige of that great Christian counterattack known as the Crusades, and the Sultan was now determined to stamp it out forever. Communiqués were sent all over Europe, calling the Knights to the defense of their last island home.

For the strategists of the Turks, including an old Algerian corsair called Dragut, Malta was more than just the remnant of an antique military order: it was the key to a proposed offensive in the western Mediterranean, an offensive that was to cow the Spanish and if possible carry the jihad to the very doors of St. Peter's. And in any case, since Sicily, Sardinia, Majorca, and southern Spain itself had once been Islamic lands, it was a duty imposed upon the Sultan, by the iron principles of jihad, as duly constituted ruler, the successor to the caliph, to recover them from the infidel. Lands where the banners of the Crescent had once flown proudly must be returned to the Dar al-Islam (the House of Islam). The presence of the Maltese Knights barred such a project; and therefore the reduction of the island would be a prelude to a wider war. Said Dragut: "Unless you have smoked out this nest of vipers, you can do no good anywhere." In March of 1565, a fleet of nearly 200 vessels, bearing some 40,000 soldiers (including 6,500 elite shock troops known as the Janissaries), assembled in the Golden Horn for the Sultan's inspection. Dragut made two astute recommendations: move against the isle early in the season, and detach a significant flotilla to menace the Spanish mainland, thereby preventing aid from the Emperor. Once the invasion began, the more confident among the Sultan's advisers anticipated the victory to come -- in a matter of days.

The victory never came. Across Europe news of the bravery of Knights -- outnumbered five to one or more -- rang like a great tocsin. All throughout that brutal summer on the sun-baked isle, the Turks had been repulsed, time after time, in their attempts to take the Christian fortresses of Malta. One such fortress had been reduced to rubble by Turkish artillery, and its garrison (almost every one of them already dead) desecrated by enraged Turks; but the other had held. Casualties among the Sultan's army had been terrible, and disease ran rampant. The stiffness of the resistance, added to the depredations of pestilence and heatstroke, had won for Western Christians their first great victory over the Turk. La Valette's final address to his men has come down to us:

A formidable army composed of audacious barbarians is descending on this island. These persons, my brothers, are the enemies of Jesus Christ. Today it is a question of the defense of our faith -- as to whether the Gospels are to be superseded by the Koran. God on this occasion demands of us our lives, already vowed to his service. Happy will be those who first consummate this sacrifice.

The date of this victory has for us a certain resonance: it was September 11, 1565.

From that day we may date the decline of Turkish power on the Mediterranean. Six years later at Lepanto, a vast Ottoman fleet was decisively beaten by a comparable fleet of the Christian Holy League in one of the largest and bloodiest naval battles ever fought. The Knights were there on that day too. On another September 11, 1683, the Polish King John Sobieski led an army to relieve Vienna from a Turkish siege, in a battle that marks the end of the Turkish advance into Europe. These dates may strike us today as very ancient indeed; the reader may wonder what significance they have to us. The answer is that they form the conclusion to a very long story, a great tale of human drama, mostly forgotten now by a forgetful people -- a drama that, on yet another September 11th, was renewed here in America. It is the story of the Jihad.

There can be little doubt that this story, now updated to include our own contributions to it, will bulk bigger for our children and grandchildren than it does for us. Jihad has come to America, as it once came to Byzantium, which was Rome; as it once came to Latin North Africa, and extinguished that ancient civilization; as it once came to Spain, to France, to Italy, to Greece and the Balkans; to India and to Russia; and, much more recently, to Great Britain, to Spain again, to Bali, to the Philippines, to Canada, to Denmark; and to a dozen other places. Jihad is a fact: a massive and glaring fact. It is the religious doctrine that has motivated men to make war against the Unbeliever for fourteen centuries.

The idea of religious war is not something modern man ever really contemplates; he only shudders at it. But this, for our enemies and thus inevitably also for us, is a religious war, whether or not we in the secular world of the West will take it seriously. If men choose to make war against you on religious grounds, you cannot change the fact of this religious war by wishing it weren't so. This one, moreover, has been a very long war, waged over souls and for the souls of whole nations; therefore it has been slow and erratically conducted. Rare is the war that occupies the leaders of more than one generation of men; rarer still is the war that occupies leaders of more than one age of men. This one has occupied medieval men, renaissance men, modern men, and it will surely implicate postmodern men. It began in what we call the Dark Age and has not yet ended; and we would do well not to sneer at a war that has gazed with patient, jaded eyes on the Battle of Tours, the fall of Constantinople and the Siege of Vienna; the victory of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and her defeat; the break up of Catholic Europe and the decay of Protestantism; and the rise and fall of Feudalism, Monarchy, Aristocracy, and Democracy, each in turn.

On this day, when we remember the act of treachery and malevolence that finally made manifest to us this war, it is foolish to abstract it from its historical context. It is foolish to remember New York, September 11, 2001, and never once think about Vienna, September 11, 1683, or Malta, September 11, 1565; or even Constantinople, May 29, 1453 or Tours, October 7, 732. We might as well talk obsessively about Normandy and say nothing of Pearl Harbor or the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. We might as well fix our attention on Gettysburg and cultivate perfect innocence of Ft. Sumter or First Manassas. No, we must show more imagination than that. We must bring ourselves around to see that there are older and more implacable things on this earth than what our predilections tell us, and that the Jihad is one of the oldest and most implacable.

Paul J. Cella is a freelance writer and Editor at Redstate.com. He is working on a book about Jihad.

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54 Comments

About time
That a TCS author acknowledges that Islam has a long history of agression, that its not merely a recent abberation, but seems to be a persistant and intrinsic feature. Egaging in wishful thinking and calling it "a great religion of peace" will not change that fact.

I'm getting tired of people in the public square making the ridiculous assertion that Islam has been hijacked by a few. Islam has been a martial philosophy from the days of its founding.

Jihad
Congrats Paul on the article and the future book.I am interested in what you will say about the Jews' reactions against the Moslems as well as the Christian crusades.
I am living in a post 12-21-88 world because my brother Mark Lawrence Christopher Tobin was murdered by Gaddaffi and his stooges in the Pan Am #103 bombing on the 8th Day of Hannakah, in Lockerbie, Scotland. It has not yet been avenged, and I don't know if we convicted the only agent responsible, Abdel Bassett Ali-Megrahi in Barlinnie Prison Glasgow, Scotland, or if Lamen Kalifah Fimah is also guilty (but was let go) in the Scottish Court in The Netherlands which I attended after my meetings with Sandy Berger,Madeleine Albright, and Bill Richardson in the late 1990's.
I am disgusted that The New York Times has been lazy and un-professional in failing to cover the Pan Am Bombing and aftermath, and allowing successive administrations to delay, and therefore deny justice. They have recently promoted tourism there with only a short note about sanctions against them, and our gov. should capture Gaddaffi who has killed far more than Saddam Hussein of Iraq. The Bush family has their proirities wrong.

Knee jerk reactionism
Look, human beings have a long history of agression against other human beings. Sometimes we kill each other for money, sometimes we kill each other for resources and sometimes we kill each other for religion.

Pretty much every religion at one time or another has been co-opted by bloodthirsty barbarians who used it as an excuse to rape and kill. (If this has never happened to a religion it's probably less than a century old.)

Now out of 1.2 Billion Muslims worldwide we may have as many as 10% or 120 million who believe terrorism is a viable option.

It is a huge problem, however there are not 1.2 Billion Muslims wanting to commit terrorist acts, probably not even 120 million willing to commit terrorist acts.

Islamic extremism may present the greatest terrorist threat to the world today; however terrorism is not limmited to Islamic extremism nor are the vast majority of Muslims extremists.

The Victory of September 11, 1565
acougar:

At present, Islam is the only religion that is slaughtering people in any real numbers. Unfortunately, people like Ahmadinejad, Zawahiri, Nasrullah,OBL and the late lamented Zarqawi are or were the foremost practitioners of that good old-time religion, traditional Islam.

The point of historical essays like those of Paul Cella and the Baron at Gates of Vienna is that expansionist jihad, which had been in abeyance for 300 years after Jan Sobieski and his winged hussars put an end to the siege of Vienna in 1683, is now running full blast again.

The fact that you are not impressed by it is completely beside the point. It is very deeply interested in you.

...jerk reactionism
Your moral relativism has the net effect of making you a protagonist for jihadists by saying they are no different than followers of any other religion.

Your implication is that we should not wage war against them.

Have you bought your mother, wife and daughter their burkas yet?

of course not
Nothing like that will happen in his world. It is a place where gays are happily married, there are no cars and polar bears rhomp and play with the the neighborhood kids. Everyone is just misunderstood, if we would only try and understand each other there would be no need for violence.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and all the others were really good people to cougar, if we would only try and understand them.

What to you mean moral relativism; everything is relative in his world.

Knee Jerk Relativism
"Look, Pretty much every religion at one time or another has been co-opted by bloodthirsty barbarians who used it as an excuse to rape and kill.", is about the most obvious and useless statement possible on the matter.

The problem isn't the numbers, its that the imperial impulse is ever present in Islam. Christianity has produced some scoundrels, but every once in a while it produces an Assisi.

If Islam didn't have 1.2 billion fecund adherents and it lacked oil, we'd regard it as a curiousity at best, but more likely a cult.





historical vision
Thirty years ago The Enemy was Communism, and few people thought about radical Islamists. The Terrorists were the Red Brigades, the Baader Meinhof gang, Che Guevara, etc. Police action took care of them, not war on a whole people. Non-combatants who die from terrorism or war are equally innocent.
This article is boosterism for the Military Industrial Complex, with a sinister twist, moving subtly along the lines of Fascist anti-Jewish propaganda - 'they've been our enemies for centuries'. I'm especially intrigued how those who claim to be Christians justify hating 1.2 billion people... And JC said about the hate-mongers who claim to act in His name, 'I know them not'.

Ahistorical Revisionism
Military Industrial Complex? Haven’t you got a fresher vacant invective? Man I love the vacant phraseology of die hard left wingers! The only fascists are you guys- notice how the Clintonistas threatened ABC. You don't even know what a fascist is, your brainwashed.

I didn’t say I hate 1.2 billion muslims, actually I rather pity them, tied to a religion that makes God cold and impersonal, makes anything beautiful not something to be respected, but something to be avoided, while (in some interpretations) making the most irrelevant and trivial of things, such as the length of a man’s beard a barometer of piety. Philosophically, it simultaneously claims that we have the inability to have any knowledge of the divine, but can somehow infer the divine will. Its sort of like the bitter religion of the left, in some respects.

As for the police action-what "police action" took care of them? The Soviet union lost an economic war but Castro still exists and new leftists are arising such as Chavez. How much brainwashing does it take to be that wrong?

You aren’t just illogical, you’re apparently incapable of reading. You prattle on about what you think I said but didn't hit a single point.





histoical ignorance
There's a reason why it was called the Cold WAR.
The Red Brigades etc., were just one front in that war.
There was also Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and hundreds of other places were people were shooting at each other in large numbers.
Police actions worked in some cases. Didn't in others.
During WWII, the police and FBI were used to track down spies and saboteurs here in the US. Does that prove that there was no need for troops elsewhere in the world?

A bit rich!
"Ahistorical Revisionism"?

The whole essay is ahistorical revisionism. It has nothing to say about other major conflicts (WW1, WW2, Cold War)because it doesn't fit into the 'Islam at war with Christianity' schema.

'Vintagent' attempts to put political Islamism or Islamic terrorism into context by pointing out its irrelevance (or non-existence) during the Cold War, and you accuse HIM/HER of being ahistorical?!

No Subject
"Your moral relativism has the net effect of making you a protagonist for jihadists by saying they are no different than followers of any other religion."

When you say 'moral relativism' what you really mean is the avoidance of making any similarly loose connection between religion and barbarity in the past, however recent. Ahistoricism is ok as long as that target is Islam and fill in the gaps as you go along?

The reason why reference is made to the barbarism of the nominal followers of other religions down the ages is that it serves to point out that it is an equally flawed methodology that can conclude that what happened hundreds of years ago corresponds with contemporary events.

And it certainly doesn't make it an excuse for jihaddie murderers. Unless you're saying all Muslims are jihaddie murderers.

No Subject
"The point of historical essays like those of Paul Cella and the Baron at Gates of Vienna is that expansionist jihad, which had been in abeyance for 300 years after Jan Sobieski and his winged hussars put an end to the siege of Vienna in 1683, is now running full blast again"

So why was it in abeyance and why has it 'woken up' now? Supposedly historical essays like these offer nothing because they are too interested in sweeping across the centuries in one breath to persuade the aleady-convinced that a 1300 year old war is going on. It is merely bed-time reading for people wanting to think they are the reincarnation of a Crusader! Dream on!

A flawed methodology
I can scarcely believe TCS can present this essay as remotely serious. It is nothing but an attempt to read history backwards to fit in with the enemy of the day - ignore the periods when countries (that happened to have Muslim majorities) were a threat to no-one and present the Ottoman Empire as purely a religious crusade. Then pick out, in the crudest way possible, some loose connection between medieval wars and long irrelevant battles, and OBL. The fact that OBL wants to return to the C7 doesn't prove either that he can, or, that the same circumstances prevail now as they did hundreds of years ago.

It's no more convincing an argument than saying the European Empires of the C19-20 were a resurgence of crusading Christianity. A crucial difference is that Western nations DID colonize the vast majority of the world. 'Islamic' countries haven't been in Europe for hundreds of years. How does the absence of an Islamic 'empire' outside Africa and Asia prove its martial philosophy?

The most ludicrous aspect of the article is the attempt to claim that 2 events 1269 years (count 'em!!) apart are comparable to 2 events in WW2, 3 years apart! It is arrant nonsense! In essence, it is the message of the piece, however - make a connection between 2 events because they have the vaguest similarity and say that the second is merely the first in a modern form. The whole piece is utter fantasy from start to finish! To suggest that what caused Tours in 732 caused 9/11 is sheer desperation!

It can in no way explain the barbarity of Islamic terrorism now because it cannot explain why it had no significance in other times.

It makes Milosevic and Tudjman's appeals to remember long-forgotten battles in the Balkans look principled!

By all means fight Islamic fundamentalism now but don't expect people to buy into this 'Longest Hatred' garbage!

Islam @ War with EVERYBODY
Two or more conflicts are occurring contemporaneously but they don't involve identical combatants so we can assume that that one of them isn't part of an ongoing clash? HUh?


Islam is at war with EVERYBODY who won't "submit".

Exremists not the same as followers
I believe you are confusing religious extremists with followers of religion. Religious extremism is a huge issue for Islam and a significent one for every other religion as well.

My implication is that we wage a Jihad against religious extremism, not against the peaceful practicioners of religions not our own.

Is it truely possible that a sane person would think that extremist Muslims have the power to enforce thier values upon us? Will they become the majority in this country? Will they achieve the military might to enforce thier fundamentalism on the world?



You must be new here, acougar
You said "I believe you are confusing religious extremists with followers of religion."

Unfortunately, it is a common and deliberate conflation on TCS threads.

"Is it truely possible that a sane person would think that extremist Muslims have the power to enforce thier values upon us? Will they become the majority in this country? Will they achieve the military might to enforce thier fundamentalism on the world?"

The answers are obviously 'no' to all three questions. However, that doesn't stop bloggers on here claiming that
1) Even moderate Muslims want to enforce their values on the West and convert non-Muslims. (Apparently, the only difference between them and fundamentalists is that the latter want to convert us at the point of a sword!)
2) Muslims are busy attempting to outbreed 'us' and THEN enforce their values on us. (No proof is ever given for this or when they would be politically organised in a monolithic bloc to achieve this)
3) Extremists at present are busy gathering the material to enforce their fundamentalism on the rest of the world. (Again, proof is lacking. It is enough just to assert it when preaching to the converted!)

It's one thing to see the danger in fundamentalism but quite another to believe that moderate Muslims are complicit.
I can only assume that the belief that ALL Muslims are intent on enforcing the Caliphate in the West is an attempt to bring to fruition the clash of civilisations that Al Qaeda desires, or that it is the cover for a race war. Either way, it is borne of an extreme pessimism not usually associated with a political culture that believes it can promote democratic and free market values in the rest of the world. Islam is considered to be so powerful a religion that secularism cannot possibly penetrate it. The anti-muslim brigade have given up the ghost, I'm afraid!

Supra-historical superheater
"Two or more conflicts are occurring contemporaneously but they don't involve identical combatants so we can assume that that one of them isn't part of an ongoing clash? HUh?"

If you can provide evidence that the 1300-year-old conflict was taking place in parallel with the Cold War (and WW1, WW2 etc while we're at it) then you may have the semblance of an argument. Repeating it doesn't make it so! Huh?

"Islam is at war with EVERYBODY who won't "submit"."

Is it really? Again, provide your evidence rather than merely asserting.
Can you identify any discernible difference between the vice chairwoman of the UK Conservative party, a secular Muslim in the West, a member of the Revolutionary Women of Afghanistan, General Nasser, Leila Khaled, a Nation of Islam black separatist, and OBL? Or are they 'all the bloody same'?

Perhaps you should demonstrate how, beyond a small minority of lunatic fanatics, this 'war' manifests itself. Usually, the crucial absence of evidence is mocked on these threads.

No Subject
"You must be new here, acougar"

Yes, I'm new.

"1) Even moderate Muslims want to enforce their values on the West and convert non-Muslims. (Apparently, the only difference between them and fundamentalists is that the latter want to convert us at the point of a sword!)"

So Moderate Muslims believe in their religion and want to convert non-Muslims, how is this different from Christianity? History shows us that converting with the point of the sword was a common practice by both Christianity and Islam not too long ago. Christianity moved a step forward and has discontinued the practice, and that is a great thing. Some followers of Islam still need to take that step.

2) Muslims are busy attempting to outbreed 'us' and THEN enforce their values on us. (No proof is ever given for this or when they would be politically organised in a monolithic bloc to achieve this)

Well, we know that parents in poverty usually have more children than people who believe all their children will outlive them. We know that more Muslims are in poverty than Christians, so I guess there is some truth to the idea.

"3) Extremists at present are busy gathering the material to enforce their fundamentalism on the rest of the world. (Again, proof is lacking. It is enough just to assert it when preaching to the converted!)"

I often worry that this threat is being propped up to provide a Bogey man, an excuse for us to invade the middle east and secure the resources there, an excuse to keep military spending high, a cause to rally the American people and keep their minds off the fact that their future and their children’s future is being stolen.

"I can only assume that the belief that ALL Muslims are intent on enforcing the Caliphate in the West is an attempt to bring to fruition the clash of civilizations that Al Qaeda desires, or that it is the cover for a race war. Either way, it is borne of an extreme pessimism not usually associated with a political culture that believes it can promote democratic and free market values in the rest of the world. Islam is considered to be so powerful a religion that secularism cannot possibly penetrate it. The anti-muslim brigade have given up the ghost, I'm afraid!"

All you have to do is follow the money. Odds are, whoever is benefiting most from this clash of civilizations is the real protagonist.

re: acougar
For the most part I agree with you.

"So Moderate Muslims believe in their religion and want to convert non-Muslims, how is this different from Christianity?"

Absolutely! My proselytising Catholic mother is just the same. My point is, however, that the anti-Muslim element on these threads only see this as something Muslims do. And that it can only be menacing. They remind me of those homophobes who think that all gay men want to have their way with them and are ready to jump on them at any given moment. Rather than just say 'no thanks, I'm not interested', they work themselves up into a frenzy.

"History shows us that converting with the point of the sword was a common practice by both Christianity and Islam not too long ago. Christianity moved a step forward and has discontinued the practice, and that is a great thing. Some followers of Islam still need to take that step."

Right. And it is the fundamentalist low-lifes that are to blame for that, not your average Mo.

"Well, we know that parents in poverty usually have more children than people who believe all their children will outlive them. We know that more Muslims are in poverty than Christians, so I guess there is some truth to the idea."

Precisely! A similar situation existed with Catholics in Northern Ireland. They are predominantly at the bottom of the economic heap because of sectarianism over the years but Protestants, fearing their privileged position was under threat, would claim that Catholics were attempting to outbreed them in order to usurp them. Utter fantasy! Now that there is some economic parity, there is also some equalisation in birth rates. Surprise surprise!
The suggestion, however, is that Muslims are somehow PLANNING all this to usurp Christianity in the West. When I ask for evidence of the success of pro-Islamic parties as a measure of their method and progress in the West, I don't get a reply. Very predictable.

"I often worry that this threat is being propped up to provide a Bogey man, an excuse for us to invade the middle east and secure the resources there, an excuse to keep military spending high, a cause to rally the American people and keep their minds off the fact that their future and their children’s future is being stolen."

I agree with you to a degree. The hyping of a bogeyman certainly serves a purpose in the absence of the 'Red Menace'. As Ronald Reagan once remarked, 'the West will soon miss the Soviet Union' because it served as a useful enemy against which to cohere. Not only that but there was the opportunity to slander your political enemies as fellow-travellers. Whether this was true or not didn't really matter.
Focusing on Islam as the next great menace is hardly replacing like for like. Since Islam is unlikely to gain much of a hearing in the West beyond the fraction of the population with family connections to it, or of there being sustained attacks from abroad, the talking up of the threat becomes steadily more important. Since this is a Right-wing site the hostility to Muslims often takes on an extreme form. What is bizarre is that those people actively resist distinguishing between the Islamic extremists and the moderates.

"All you have to do is follow the money. Odds are, whoever is benefiting most from this clash of civilizations is the real protagonist."

It's a shame that Western values that I support - universalism, democracy, economic and social development - i.e. ones that all humanity can benefit from, are abandoned in this quest for the bogeyman. The net is cast ever wider until all followers of Islam (fundamentalist, moderate and secular) are targeted as the enemy. The war isn't then about winning 'hearts and minds' through the strength of progessive ideas but people's pyhsical annihilation. Believe me, there are those who openly advocate genocide. Those that do are, of course, a tiny minority so it's best not to exaggerate their significance in the wider world either.

Knee-Jerk Reductionism
You utterly missed the point.

The point is, Islam is INHERENTLY political and by direct extension martial. The political and martial roots of Judaism and Xianity do not extend nearly as deep into the soil of their metaphysical foundations. For this reason, Xians can found nations with a church-state separation, and Israel can exist in perfect peace until such times when it is attacked from without. This pacific attitude and a mosque-state separation are factually impossible for Muslims.

As for the 90% of Muslims who have no interest in terrorism, their lack of fighting will does not mean they are peaceful, only that they are _credentes_ in contrast to the terrorist _Perfecti_ (these are metaphorical references to the European Catharism of the Middle Ages). The _credentes_ are obliged to give help/support and worshipful respect to the _Perfecti_ even while they are not obligated to live the same lifestyle.

I believe that Sufi mystics desire a peaceful world. But Sufi mystics are few and far between.

historical memorex
If you do not hate, then there is nothing that you love.

Dialectics now?
I don't hate my (non-practising) Muslim girlfriend because I love her.

Happy hating O Great One!

Identikit Islam
No-one here has yet managed to demonstrate that every Muslim (fundis, mods and secular) are the same and that their mission is world domination.

You can carry on all day telling me how every single muslim is determined to go to war against the West. The fact is that, apart from a small minority of socially-inadequate headcases, they have no intention of going to war. I'm sorry if that doesn't help your conspiracy theory.

"This pacific attitude and a mosque-state separation are factually impossible for Muslims."

This deterministic view of history tells us nothing. Oh well, they'll have no future until they convert to Christianity, I presume? Utter ahistorical hogwash! Try telling the southern Irish about the separation of church and state and you'll get some quizzical looks from anyone over the age of 30!

"As for the 90% of Muslims who have no interest in terrorism, their lack of fighting will does not mean they are peaceful, only that they are _credentes_ in contrast to the terrorist _Perfecti_ (these are metaphorical references to the European Catharism of the Middle Ages). The _credentes_ are obliged to give help/support and worshipful respect to the _Perfecti_ even while they are not obligated to live the same lifestyle."

Again, utter nonsense! Things move on. If you believe that Muslims who aren't terrorists are merely their supporters then I imagine you haven't met many. Or indeed that there could possibly be as many differences between them as there are between white folks. I presume you will get all your intel about Muslims from a few books about Islamic doctrine than the reality on the ground.

Maybe you just don't read all that well
"...
The reason why reference is made to the barbarism of the nominal followers of other religions down the ages is that it serves to point out that it is an equally flawed methodology that can conclude that what happened hundreds of years ago corresponds with contemporary events.
..."

Comparing and contrasting is a valid rhetorical tool for disclosing a larger picture.

Nominal followers? And you have the facts to back this up?
Or is this just an assertion derived from your experiences and connected together through the sheer power of your overwhelming intellectual prowess.

Department stores bombed in southern Thailand

Canadian Press
Published: Sunday, September 17, 2006

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=94736bba-3cd2-48bd-b9c6-d299b649a946&k=27593

"BANGKOK, Thailand -- A series of bomb blasts ripped through three department stores Saturday night in Thailand's restive south, killing four people including a Canadian and injuring dozens more, police said.

...

On Sunday, Thai police Lt.-Col. Prasit Paocsoo said the dead included a 29-year-old Canadian citizen. He did not provide a name or hometown.

Two bombs exploded in front of a pub and car park at the Odean Shopping Mall and a third bomb exploded at a nearby massage parlour. A fourth bomb exploded in a Big C department store and another at restroom in Diana Department Stores.

Authorities quickly blamed separatist insurgents for the attack. Since 2004, they have waged a bloody campaign that has left at least 1,700 dead. Most of those have been civilians.

"We do believe that the insurgents are responsible for the bombs attacked," military spokesman Lt.-Gen. Palangoon Klaharn said.

"Their intention is to spread fear in the region."

Thai Army Commander Sonthi Boonyaratkalin this week ordered military personnel in the deep south to be on high alert from Saturday through Wednesday, after reports of possible attacks by the Gerakan Mujahidin Islam Pattani (GMIP), an offshoot of the southern militant group Gerakan Mujahidin Pattani (GMP), to mark its anniversary.

Insurgents in recent weeks have been more brazen with their attacks and shown an ability to launch co-ordinated attacks that hit at the region's economy. Last month, they launched a series of daylight attacks against banks in Yala province, killing one, injuring nearly 30 and forcing the temporary closure of many financial institutions.

They have also hit schools and government offices during their two-year campaign. Last year, they bombed the Hat Yai International Airport, killing two people. A department store and a hotel in the province were also bombed and more than 70 people in all were wounded.

..."

no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.

The East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM)
"
The East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) is a separatist Muslim group operating in China's western Xinjiang province. ETIM is the most militant of the various groups in the Xinjiang region that demand separation from China and the creation of an independent state called East Turkestan. China has long viewed the ETIM and similar groups as a threat to its territorial integrity, and after the attacks on America on Sept. 11, 2001, executed a harsh crackdown on the region by increasing its military presence, detaining suspected members, and limiting religious rights. Chinese authorities blame separatist groups, including ETIM, for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.

While China has portrayed its battle with ETIM as part of a worldwide struggle against international terrorism, the group's global reach and links to al Qaeda are disputed. In August 2002, the administration of U.S. president George W. Bush froze the group's U.S. assets, and, the following month, the United Nations added ETIM to its "list of terrorists and terrorist supporters associated with Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network." Besides Xinjiang, ETIM cells are said to be operating in Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Pakistan. U.S. officials claim that the group has a "close financial relationship" with al Qaeda, based on information they received from militants currently detained at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. A January 2002 Chinese government study found that ETIM members crossed into Afghanistan, where they received training from al Qaeda members, and returned back to Xinjiang to foment terrorist activity. According to the report, ETIM has received money, weapons and support from al Qaeda.
..."

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/etim.cfm


no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on ...

some other countries from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_extremist_terrorism
"
U.S. State Department list
United States Department of State

Abu Sayyaf, Philippines
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Egypt also known as The Islamic Group
al-Qaeda, Worldwide
Ansar al-Islam, Iraq
Armed Islamic Group (GIA), Algeria
Army of Ansar al-Sunna, Iraq
AZF, France
Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Egypt
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Egypt
Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front (IBDA-C), Turkey
Hamas, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen al-Alami, Pakistan
Hezbollah, Lebanon
Islamic Movement of Central Asia, Central Asia
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Uzbekistan
Jaish-e-Mohammed, Pakistan and Kashmir
Jemaah Islamiyah, Indonesia
Lashkar-e-Toiba, Pakistan and Kashmir
Lashkar i Jhangvi, Pakistan
Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Philippines
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Morocco and Europe
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Tawhid and Jihad (Al-Qaeda in the Land between the Two Rivers (Iraq)), Iraq
[edit]
References
^ Complete English translation text of 2004 Osama bin Laden videotape on Al-Jazeera.
^ Michael, Maggie. Bin Laden, in statement to U.S. people, says he ordered Sept. 11 attacks. The Associated Press. October 29, 2004.
^ Excerpts from the BBC. October 29, 2004.
^ Mir, Amir (2005). The jihad lives on. South Asia. Asia Times Online Ltd.. Retrieved on 2006-06-24.
^ Speech by the Prime Minister the Rt Hon Tony Blair MP to the Confederation of Indian Industry Bangalore, India 5 January 2002. Indo-UK Relations. britishhighcommission.gov. Retrieved on 2006-06-24.
^ Thompson, Geoff (2004). Is Lashkar-e-Toiba still operating in Pakistan?. PM. Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ current situation. wars and armed conflicts. Peace Pledge Union (2002). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ [1]
^ "Hezbollah disarmament unclear", CNN, May 7, 2005. Retrieved on August 5, 2006.
^ "Hezbollah not on Russia's terrorist list", Associated Press. Retrieved on 2006-08-10.
^ "EU won't label Hezbollah 'terrorist' group", United Press International, 2006-08-02.
^ COUNCIL COMMON POSITION 2005/847/CFSP (29 November 2005).
^ European Union. The EU's relations with Lebanon.
^ McConnell, Scott (2005). The Logic of Suicide Terrorism. The American Conservative magazine. The American Conservative. Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Hamas sweeps to election victory. Middle East news. BBC (2006). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Palestinians want Hamas reform - poll. News - Arab World. Aljazeera.Net (2006). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics. Pew Global Attitudes Project. Pew Research Center (2005). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ King, Anthony (2005). One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists. News. Telegraph Group Limited. Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ A Year After Iraq War - Mistrust of America in Europe Ever Higher, Muslim Anger Persists. Survey reports. The Pew Research Center (2004). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Bin Laden more popular with Nigerian Muslims than Bush. News. Daily Times of Pakistan (2003). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Free Muslims Coalition
^ Glasser, Susan B. (2005). Global Terrorism Statistics Debated. World news. The Washington Post Company. Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Iran: Ayatollah Issues Fatwa Against Suicide Attacks. adn kronos international. adn kronos international (2006). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ The terrorist attacks in London. Rumi Forum (2005). Retrieved on 2006-08-01.
^ A Real Muslim cannot be a Terrorist. Interview with Nuriye Akman of Zaman Daily. Fethullah Gulen's Website (2004). Retrieved on 2006-08-01.
^ The True, Peaceful Face Of Islam. Time. Time Inc. (2001). Retrieved on 2006-08-01.
^ A Muslim cannot be a Terrorist and a Terrorist cannot be a Muslim. Article. Fethulah Gulen's Website (2002). Retrieved on 2006-08-01.
^ Islam Denounces Terrorism. Harun Yahya's Website (2006). Retrieved on 2006-08-01.
^ Akshardham attack was planned in Riyadh. The Times of India. Times Internet Limited (2003). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.
^ Akshardham attack "plotted in Riyadh". India news. Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. (2005). Retrieved on 2006-06-25.

..."

no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on ...

Maybe you don't comprehend that well
"Nominal followers? And you have the facts to back this up?
Or is this just an assertion derived from your experiences and connected together through the sheer power of your overwhelming intellectual prowess."

Nominal because as soon as I'd say 'Christian barbarians in the past' some 'Christian' would say that they were nothing of the sort. I think it's fair to say that Mary I of England, the Spanish monarchy that expelled Jews and Muslims, those carrying out the Inquisition and the Crusades, the Lords Resistance Army etc etc etc are perhaps more than mere nominal followers, however. There I've said it!! May God strike me down!

well
there was a reformation of the catholic church, provoked by Martin Luther.

The reformation was a drive to get the politics out of the church.

We have to be careful about the value (resources) we put into the concept - "Moral High-ground".

It is an arbitrary container.

well
"there was a reformation of the catholic church, provoked by Martin Luther.

The reformation was a drive to get the politics out of the church."

Right, but that didn't preclude anti-Catholic violence to preserve Anglicism at the heart of the Tudor dynasty, with a brief interlude of Protestant-burning courtesy of Mary I. And so it went on through William & Mary, the Stuarts etc. Then there was the legally-upheld anti-Catholicism of the 18th and 19th centuries, replete with anti-Catholic riots. It took quite some time (and a few revolutions here and there) before Church and state were decisively separated. There are examples where that has occurred only relatively recently.

We could be here all day bringing up crimes in the name of religion from the past. My point about the article was that battles of long ago tell us no more about the terrorism of Islamic fundamentalists today than the Battle of Kosovo tells us anything about the origins of the break-up of Yugoslavia. Or that the religion was the primary cause of conflict in Ireland. Surely, it is incumbent on any serious contributor to analyse the subject at hand and uncover the causes of contemporary conflicts and not read history backwards.

A political dimension will never be wholly driven out of religion. The last Pope's anti-communism or the Unionists/Loyalists in the north of Ireland being a couple of examples.

"We have to be careful about the value (resources) we put into the concept - "Moral High-ground".

It is an arbitrary container."

Indeed it is! Or to be quick to judge re: "Or is this just an assertion derived from your experiences and connected together through the sheer power of your overwhelming intellectual prowess."

Thanks
for the resarch. Tell me something I don't know.

"no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on.
no pattern; nothing to see here, please move on ..."

Have I ever said that Islamic terrorism doesn't exist?
Feel free to point out where I've said this.

My argument on TCS threads has always been that THE EXISTENCE of Islamist terrorism has its roots in the failure of the programmes of the radical secular anti-colonial movements, rather than there being a direct link with the religious wars of the past.

Here's what I think you're referring to: "Focusing on Islam as the next great menace is hardly replacing like for like. Since Islam is unlikely to gain much of a hearing in the West beyond the fraction of the population with family connections to it, or of there being sustained attacks from abroad, the talking up of the threat becomes steadily more important. Since this is a Right-wing site the hostility to Muslims often takes on an extreme form. What is bizarre is that those people actively resist distinguishing between the Islamic extremists and the moderates."

Where does that support your claim that I deny the existence (or pattern) of Islamic terrorism?

(Since the Al-Aqsa Brigades are a radical offshoot of Fatah, they can hardly be called Islamic fundamentalists. They're more PFLP than Islamic Jihad)

the article was about war by Islamics
2300 BC - conquests of Sargon of Akkad
ca. 1720 BC - Kassite attacks on Babylon
1650-1600 BC - conquests of Hattusili I and Mursili I
1600 BC - Hyksos conquest of Egypt
1600 BC - Xia-Shang War in China
1430-1350 BC - Kaska invasions of Hatti
1100 BC - Sea Peoples harrying the Mediterranean; Dorian invasion
1046 BC - Shang-Zhou War in China
800 BC - Messenians Wars
722 BC - 481 BC Wars of the Chinese Spring and Autumn Period
701 BC - Sennacherib's campaigns in the Near East
8th century BC - 7th century BC - Lelantine War
499 BC - 479 BC Persian Wars
480 BC - 307 BC Sicilian Wars
480 BC First Sicilian War
410 BC - 340 BC Second Sicilian War
315 BC - 307 BC Third Sicilian War
475 BC - 221 BC Wars of Warring States Period in China
431 BC - 404 BC Peloponnesian War
395 BC - 387 BC Corinthian War
343 BC - 290 BC Samnite Wars between Rome and Samnium
343 BC - 341 BC First Samnite War
327 BC - 304 BC Second Samnite War
298 BC - 290 BC Third Samnite War
334 BC - 323 BC Wars of Alexander the Great
323 BC - 322 BC Lamian War
323 BC - 280 BC Wars of the Diadochi
274 BC-200 BC Syrian Wars
274 BC 271 BC First Syrian War
260 BC 255 BC Second Syrian War
245 BC 241 BC Third Syrian War
219 BC 217 BC Fourth Syrian War
202 BC 200 BC Fifth Syrian War
267 BC - 261 BC Chremonidean War
265 BC - 263 BC Kalinga War
264 BC - 146 BC Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage
264 BC - 241 BC First Punic War
218 BC - 202 BC Second Punic War
149 BC - 146 BC Third Punic War
215 BC - 168 BC Macedonian Wars
215 BC - 205 BC First Macedonian War
200 BC - 196 BC Second Macedonian War
171 BC - 168 BC Third Macedonian War
209 BC - 88 BC Parthian - Seleucid Wars
206 BC - 202 BC Chu-Han contention in China
135 BC - 71 BC Roman Servile Wars
135 BC - 132 BC First Servile War
104 BC - 100 BC Second Servile War
73 BC - 71 BC Third Servile War or Spartacist Rebellion
122 BC - 105 BC Jugurthine War
91 BC - 88 BC Social War
88 BC - 87 BC Sulla's first civil war
89 BC - 63 BC Mithridatic Wars
89 BC - 85 BC First Mithridatic War
83 BC - 82 BC Second Mithridatic War
74 BC - 63 BC Third Mithridatic War
82 BC - 81 BC Sulla's second civil war
58 BC - 50 BC Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars
55 BC - 54 BC Julius Caesar's Roman invasion of Britain
53 BC - 51 BC Parthian War of Marcus Licynius Crassus
49 BC - 45 BC Caesar's civil war
44 BC - 30 BC Roman Civil War
44 BC Post-Caesarian civil war
44 BC - 42 BC The Liberators' civil war
44 BC - 36 BC Sicilian revolt
41 BC - 40 BC Fulvia's civil war
32 BC - 30 BC Antony's civil war
40 BC - 37 BC Parthian invasion on Syria and Asia Minor
36 BC - 33 BC Marc Anthony' s invasion on Parthian Empire
[edit]
List of wars AD before 1000

the article was about war ...
List of wars AD before 1000
43 Aulus Plautius' Roman invasion of Britain
51 - 63 Wars between Nero and the Parthians
66 - 70 The first Jewish-Roman War (aka the Great Jewish Revolt)
68 Year of the four emperors, Roman civil war
115 - 117 Trajan' s invasion on Parthian Empire
115 - 117 Second Jewish-Roman War
132 - 135 Third Jewish-Roman War (aka Bar Kokhba's revolt)
161 - 166 Parthian war of Lucius Verus
193 - 199 Parthian war of Septimius Severus
215 - 217 Parthian war of Caracalla
220 - 265 War of Three Kingdoms in China
291 - 306 War of the Eight Princes in China
256 Dacian Campaign
316 - 589 Civil Wars in China triggered by Wu Hu Invasion, lasted until 589 by Southern and Northern Dynasties
533 - 534 Vandal Wars in North Africa
535 - 553 Gothic War in Italy
598 - 614 Goguryeo-Sui Wars in Korea
632 - 633 Ridda wars
632 - 677 Byzantine-Arab Wars
633 - 651 Islamic Conquest of Sassanid Empire
639 - 641 Islamic conquest of Egypt
645 Tang Invasion of Goguryeo
656 – 661 First Islamic civil war
660 - 676 Civil Wars in Korea for Unification by Silla involving Tang Dynasty
711 - 718 Islamic conquest of Hispania
718 - 1492 Spanish Reconquista
732 Balhae Invasion of Tang China
892 - 936 Korean Civil War (Later Three Kingdoms)
907 - 960 Chinese Civil War (Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms)
977 - 978 War of the Three Henries
993 First Goryeo-Khitan War
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_before_1000"

the article was about war ... cont.
List of wars 1000–1499
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from List of wars 1000-1499)
Jump to: navigation, search
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002- List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

1019 Toi invasion
1066 Norman Conquest
1067-1068 War of the Three Sanchos
1096-1291 Crusades
1096-1099 First Crusade
1101 Crusade of 1101
1147-1149 Second Crusade
1187-1191 Third Crusade
1202-1204 Fourth Crusade
1209-1229 Albigensian Crusade
1212 Children's Crusade (Often believed to be fictional event)
1217-1221 Fifth Crusade
1228 Sixth Crusade
1248-1254 Seventh Crusade
1270 Eighth Crusade
1271-1291 Ninth Crusade
1180-1185 Genpei War
1215-1217 First Barons' War
1223-1480 Mongol invasion of Rus
1223-1236 Mongol invasion of Volga Bulgaria
1241-1242 Mongol invasion of Europe
1262-1267 Berke-Hulagu war
1264-1267 Second Barons' War
1296-1328 First War of Scottish Independence
1321- 1322 Kexholms War
1332-1333 Second War of Scottish Independence
1385-1399 Tokhtamysh-Timur war
1337-1453 Hundred Years' War
1341-1364 Breton War of Succession
1383-1385 1383-1385 Crisis in Portugal
1419-Oei Invasion
1420-1436 Hussite Wars
1425-1454 Wars in Lombardy
1453 Fall of Constantinople
1454 - 1466 Thirteen Years' War
1455-1485 Wars of the Roses
1467-1477 Onin War
1467-1603 Wars of Sengoku Period in Japan
1474-1477 War between the Duchy of Burgundy and the Swiss Confederation
1478 - War between the Principality of Moscow and the Republic of Novgorod
1494-1559 Italian Wars
1494-1498 Charles VIII's Italian War
1499-1500 Louis XII's war with Milan
1496-1499 First Russo-Swedish War
1499 Swabian War
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1000%E2%80%931499"

now comes a whole bunch - after the birth of secularism requires two posts.
List of wars 1500–1799
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002- List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

1500-1504 Second Italian War
1508-1516 War of the League of Cambrai
1520-1522 Castilian War of the Communities
1521-1526 Italian War of 1521
1526-1530 War of the League of Cognac
1535-1538 Italian War of 1535
1542-1546 Italian War of 1542
1551-1559 Italian War of 1551
1499-1503 Turkish-Venetian War
1509-1513 Ottoman Civil War
1514-1516 Ottoman-Safavid War
1516-1517 Ottoman-Mamluk War
1520-1521 Spanish conquest of Mexico
1521-1523 The Swedish War of Liberation
1521-1523 Uprising of the Comuneros in Castile
1521-1526 Ottoman-Hungarian War
1522 Ottoman Conquest of Rhodes
1522 The Knights' War
1524-1525 The Peasants' War
1524-1697 Spanish wars against the Mayas.
1526-1528 Hungarian Civil War
1526-1555 Ottoman-Safavid War
1528-1533 Ottoman-Habsburg War in Hungary
1531 Swiss Civil War
1532 Spanish topple the Incan empire
1532-1546 Ottoman-Habsburg War in the Mediterranean
1533-1536 The Counts' War in Denmark
1537-1544 Renewed Ottoman-Habsburg War in Hungary
1546-1547 Schmalkaldic War
1551-1562 Ottoman-Habsburg War in Hungary
1551-1581 Ottoman-Habsburg War in the Mediterranean
1552-1555 Charles V's war with Maurice of Saxony
1552 Conquest of Kazan
1554-1557 Second Russo-Swedish War
1557-1571 Livonian War
1559-1560 Scottish Rebellion against the French
1562-1598 Wars of Religion (aka War of the Three Henries or Huguenot Wars) in France
1562-1563 First War of Religion
1567-1568 Second War of Religion
1568-1570 Third War of Religion
1572-1573 Fourth War of Religion
1575-1576 Fifth War of Religion
1576-1577 Sixth War of Religion
1580 Seventh War of Religion (Lovers' War)
1585-1598 Eighth War of Religion
1589-1598 Franco-Spanish War
1562-1568 Ottoman-Habsburg War in Hungary
1563-1570 Northern Seven Years' War (aka Dano-Swedish War)
1568-1571 Morisco Revolt in Spain
1568-1648 Eighty Years' War (war of Dutch independence)
1568-1609 First Phase
1588-1654 Dutch-Portuguese War
1621-1648 Second Phase
1570-1595 Twenty-five Years' War
1571 Russo-Crimean War (1571)
1577-1582 Livonian War
1577-1590 Turkish-Persian War
1580-1583 Portuguese Civil War
1585-1604 Anglo-Spanish War (Defeat of Spanish Armada, 1588)
1590-1595 Fourth Russo-Swedish War
1592-1598 Seven-Year War
1593-1606 "Long War" between the Habsburgs and the Turks
1593-1617 Moldavian Magnate Wars
1594-1603 Nine Years War in Ireland (Tyrone Rebellion)
1596-1597 Cudgel War in Finland
1600-1611 Polish-Swedish War
1602-1612 Turkish-Persian War
1609-1618 Russo-Polish War
1609 First Anglo-Powhatan War
1610-1617 Ingrian War
1611-1613 War of Kalmar
1614-1621 Polish-Turkish War
1616-1618 Turkish-Persian War
1617-1629 Polish-Swedish War
1618-1648 Thirty Years' War
1618-1625 Bohemian/Palatine Phase
1618-1629 Austro-Transylvanian War
1625-1629 Danish Phase
1625-1630 Anglo-Spanish War
1626-1630 Anglo-French War
1627-1631 War of the Mantuan Succession
1630-1635 Swedish Phase
1635-1648 French Phase
1635-1659 Franco-Spanish War
1643-1645 The "Hannibal War" (aka Torstenssons War)
1645 Renewed Austro-Transylvanian War
1623-1638 Turkish-Persian War
1625-1629 Huguenot Uprising in France
1632-1634 Smolensk War
1634 Polish-Swedish War
1637 Pequot War
1639-1645 Kieft’s War
1639-1652 Wars of the Three Kingdoms (aka the British Civil Wars)
1639 First Bishops' War
1640 Second Bishops' War
1641-1650 Irish Confederate Wars
1642-1646 First English Civil War
1644-1647 Scottish Civil War
1648 Second English Civil War
1649-1651 Third English Civil War
1649-1651 Cromwellian conquest of Ireland
1650-1652 Cromwellian conquest of Scotland
1640-1656 Catalan Revolt
1640-1668 Portuguese War of Independence
1640-1701 French and Iroquois Wars (aka "Iroquois Wars" or the "Beaver Wars")

part two
1641-1649 Wars of Castro
1644 Second Anglo-Powhatan War
1645-1669 Turkish-Venetian War ("Cretan War")
1648-1653 The Fronde
1648-1649 First Fronde
1650-1653 Second Fronde
1648-1660 The Deluge/Northern Wars, A series of wars involving Poland, Sweden, Brandenburg, Russia and Transylvania and Denmark-Norway
1648-1654 Khmelnytsky Rebellion
1654-1656 Russo-Polish War
1655-1656 Swedish-Brandenburg War
1655-1660 Russo-Polish War (1654-1667) (first stage)
1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War, 1656-1658
1656-1660 Danish-Swedish War
1657-1660 Dutch-Swedish War
1658-1667 Russo-Polish War (1654-1667) (second stage)
1652-1654 First Anglo-Dutch War
1654-1659 Anglo-Spanish War
1655-1660 Peach Tree War
1657-1662 Turkish-Transylvanian War
1662-1664 Austro-Turkish War
1665-1667 Second Anglo-Dutch War
1667-1668 War of Devolution
1670-1671 Stenka Razin Rebellion
1671-1676 Polish-Turkish War
1672-1678 Franco-Dutch War
1672-1674 Third Anglo-Dutch War
1672-1679 War between Brandenburg and Sweden
1675-1679 Scanian War between Sweden and Denmark-Norway
1675-1677 King Philip's War
1676-1681 Russo-Turkish War
1682-1699 War of the Holy League
1683-1684 War of the Reunions
1685 Monmouth's Rebellion
1686-1700 Russo-Turkish War
1687-1689 Crimean campaigns
1695-1696 Azov campaigns
1688-1697 War of the Grand Alliance
1689-1697 King William's War North American part of the War of the Grand Alliance
1689-1691 Williamite war in Ireland
1689-1691 Jacobite Rising in Scotland
1699-1700 Darién War
1700-1721 Great Northern War
1710-1711 Pruth Campaign
1715-1717 Polish revolt against King Augustus II
1701-1714 War of Spanish Succession
1702-1713 Queen Anne's War The North American part of the War of Spanish Succession
1703-1711 Hungarian Revolt
1707-1709 Astrakhan Rebellion
1711 Tuscarora War
1712-1714 First Fox War
1714-1718 Turko-Venetian War
1715 Yamasee War
1715-1716 Jacobite Rising known as "The 'Fifteen"
1716-1718 Austro-Turkish War
1718-1720 War of the Quadruple Alliance
1722 Dummer's War in Maine
1722-1723 Russo-Persian War, 1722-1723
1722-1727 Turco-Persian War, 1722-1727
1727-1729 Spanish war between England and France
1728-1737 Second Fox War
1730-1736 Turco-Persian War, 1730-1736
1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession
1736-1739 Russo-Turkish War, 1736-1739
1737-1739 Austro-Turkish War, 1737-1739
1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession
1739-1748 War of Jenkins' Ear
1740-1742 1st Silesian War
1741-1743 Hats' Russian War
1744-1748 King George's War The North American part of the War of Austrian Succession
1744-1745 2nd Silesian War
1744-1748 First Carnatic War
1745-1746 Jacobite Rising known as "The 'Forty-five"
1743-1747 Turco-Persian War
1756-1763 Seven Years' War
1749-1754 Second Carnatic War
1754-1763 French and Indian War (U.S. name for North American phase)
1756-1763 3rd Silesian War
1759-1763 Anglo-Cherokee War
1761-1763 Spanish-Portuguese War
1763-1766 Pontiac's Rebellion
1766-1799 Anglo-Mysore Wars
1766-1769 First Anglo-Mysore War
1780-1784 Second Anglo-Mysore War
1789-1792 Third Anglo-Mysore War
1798-1799 Fourth Anglo-Mysore War
1768-1774 Russo-Turkish War, 1768-1774
1768-1776 War of the Confederation of Bar in Poland
1773-1774 Pugachev's Rebellion
1774-1783 First Anglo-Maratha War
1775-1783 American Revolutionary War or American War of Independence
1778-1783 Anglo-French War
1779-1783 Anglo-Spanish War
1780-1784 Fourth Anglo-Dutch War
1777-1779 War of the Bavarian Succession
1779-1879 Cape Frontier Wars
1779 1st Cape Frontier War
1793 2nd Cape Frontier War
1799-1801 3rd Cape Frontier War
1811 4th Cape Frontier War
1818-1819 5th Cape Frontier War
1834-1836 6th Cape Frontier War
1846 7th Cape Frontier War
1851-1853 8th Cape Frontier War
1877-1878 9th Cape Frontier War
1785-1787 Dutch Civil War
1787-1791 Austro-Turkish War, 1787-1791
1787-1792 Russo-Turkish War, 1787-1792
1788-1790 Gustav III's Russian War (aka Russo-Swedish War)
1788 The Lingonberry War between Denmark-Norway and Sweden
1791-1804 Haitian Revolution
1792 War in defence of the constitution in Poland
1792-1802 French Revolutionary Wars
1792-1797 War of the First Coalition
1792-1795 Franco-Prussian War
1792-1797 Franco-Austrian War
1793-1795 Franco-Spanish War
1793-1795 Franco-Dutch War
1793-1802 Franco-British War
1793-1796 Revolt in the Vendée
1798-1801 War of the Second Coalition
1798-1799 Franco-Russian War
1799-1801 Franco-Austrian War
1798-1801 Quasi-War
1794 Kosciuszko Uprising in Poland
1795-1798 United Irishmen Revolt
1796 Persian Expedition of Catherine the Great
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1500%E2%80%931799"

Islam has been busy shedding blood just like the rest of the world.
and it is still going on.

wars since the Communist Manifesto 1847
1840 - 1849
1843-1872 Several Maori Land Wars in New Zealand
1843 Wairau Massacre
1845-1846 Flagstaff War (aka Northern War)
1846 Hutt Valley Campaign
1847 Wanganui Campaign
1860-1861 First Taranaki War
1863-1864 Invasion of the Waikato
1864 Tauranga Campaign
1864-1866 Second Taranaki War
1865-1868 East Cape War
1868-1869 Titokowaru's War
1868-1872 Te Kooti's War
1845-1846 First Anglo-Sikh War
1846 7th Cape Frontier War
1846-1848 Mexican-American War
1848-1866 Italian Independence wars
1848-1849 First Italian Independence War, Kingdom of Sardinia allied with other Italian states against Austria
1859 Second Italian Independence War, Sardinia and France against Austria
1866 Third Italian Independence War, Unified Italy against Austria
1848-1849 Second Anglo-Sikh War
1848-1849 Hungarian Revolt of 1848
1848-1851 First war of Schleswig (aka First Danish-German War, aka Three Years' War)
[edit]
1850 - 1859
1850-1865 Taiping Rebellion
1851-1853 8th Cape Frontier War
1852 Brazil, Uruguay's Colorado government and Entre Ríos and Corrientes (Argentinean provinces)against Argentinean government under Brigadier General Juan Manuel de Rosas.
1852 Second Burmese War
1853-1856 Crimean War
1856 Campaign of 1856-1857
1856-1860 Second Opium War
1856-1857 Anglo-Persian War
1857-1858 Indian Mutiny
1857-1858 Utah War
1857-1901 Caste War of Yucatán
[edit]
1860 - 1869
1859-1863 Federal War (Guerra Federal) in Venezuela.
1861-1865 American Civil War
1862-1867 French invasion of Mexico
1864 Second war of Schleswig (aka Second Danish-German War)
1864-1868 Snake War
1864-1870 War of the Triple Alliance (aka Paraguay War)
1865-1866 Chincha Islands War (Spain against Chile and Peru)
1866 Austro-Prussian War (aka Seven Weeks War)
1866-1868 Red Cloud's War
1868-1869 Boshin War in Japan
1868-1878 Ten Years' War
[edit]
1870 - 1879
1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872-1873 Modoc War
1873-1903 Aceh War, Netherlands colonial war in Aceh (aka Thirty Years War)
1874-1875 Red River War
1876-1877 Black Hills War
1877-1878 9th Cape Frontier War
1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78
1878-1880 Second Anglo-Afghan War
1879 Anglo-Zulu War
1879-1884 War of the Pacific
[edit]
1880 - 1889
1880-1881 Gun War
1880-1881 First Boer War
1881-1885 Franco-Chinese War
1884-1899 the Mahdist War
1885 North-West Rebellion
1885-1886 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1885-1887 Third Anglo-Burmese War
[edit]
1890 - 1899
1890 Dog Tax War in New Zealand
1894-1895 First Sino-Japanese War
1895-1896 First Italo-Abyssinian War
1895-1898 Second Cuban War of Independence
1896 Anglo-Zanzibar War
1896-1898 Philippine Revolution
1897 First Greco-Turkish War, (aka the Thirty Days' War)
1897-1900 Boxer Rebellion in China
1898 Spanish-American War
1899-1902 Second Boer War
1899-1902 Thousand Days War
1899-1913 Philippine-American War

continued
List of wars 1900–1944
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002- List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

1904 British expedition to Tibet
1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War
1905 Revolution of 1905 in Russia
1911-1912 Turco-Italian War
1912-1913 Balkan Wars
1912-1913 First Balkan War
1913 Second Balkan War
1914-1918 World War I
1916 Easter Rising rebellion in Ireland
1917-1918 Russian Revolution
1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War
1918 Finnish Civil War
1918-1920 Armenian-Azeri War
1918-1919 Sochi conflict
1918 Georgian-Armenian War
1918-1919 Czechoslovakia - Hungary War
1918-1922 Russian Civil War
1918 Petsamo expedition
1918 Viena expedition
1918-1919 Polar Bear Expedition
1919 Aunus expedition
1921-1922 East Karelian Rising by Karelian Forest Guerillas
1918-1919 Polish-Ukrainian War
1918-1919 Great Poland Uprising
1919 Czechoslovak-Polish war
1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
1919 First Silesian Uprising
1919-1921 Polish-Soviet war
1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
1919-1922 Turkish War of Independence
1920-1922 Second Greco-Turkish War (aka War in Asia Minor)
1920 Polish-Lithuanian War
1920 Second Silesian Uprising
1921 Third Silesian Uprising
1922-1923 Irish Civil War
1926-1927 Northern Expedition in China
1927-1937 Chinese Civil War
1932-1935 Chaco War
1935-1936 Second Italo-Abyssinian War
1936-1939 Spanish Civil War
1937-1945 World War II
1937-1945 Second Sino-Japanese War
1937-1945 Pacific War
1939 Soviet-Japanese Border War (1939)
1939-1940 Winter War
1939 Slovak-Hungarian War
1940-1941 French-Thai War
1941 Anglo-Iraqi War
1941-1944 Continuation War
1944-1945 Slovak National Uprising
1944-1945 Lapland War
1941-1942 Ecuadorian-Peruvian War
1944-1949 Greek Civil War
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1900%E2%80%931944"

ditto
List of wars 1945–1989
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002- List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

1945-1949 Chinese Civil War
1945-1949 Indonesian National Revolution
1946-1954 First Indochina War
1947 Paraguayan Civil War
1947-1949 Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
1948 Costa Rica Civil War
1948-1949 First Arab-Israeli War
1948-1960 Malayan Emergency
1949-1959 Chineses Invasion and Occupation of Tibet
1950-1953 Korean War
1952-1960 Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya
1954-1975 Second Indochina War
1954-1975 Vietnam War
1959-1975 Laotian Civil War
1962-1975 Secret War
1967-1975 Cambodian Civil War
1954-1962 Algerian War of Independence
1955-1972 First Sudanese Civil War
1956 Suez War (Second Arab-Israeli War)
1956 Hungarian Uprising
1956-1959 Cuban Revolution
1957-1958 Ifni War
1958 Lebanon crisis of 1958
1960-1965 "Congo Crisis"
1960-1996 Guatemalan Civil War
1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion
1961-1975 Angolan War of Independence
1962-1975 Guinea-Bissauan War of Independence
1962-1963 Sino-Indian War
1963 Sand War
1962-1966 Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation
1962-1970 Yemen Civil War
1962-1975 Dhofar Rebellion
1964-1975 Mozambique's War of Independence
1965 Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
1965-1996 Chad Civil War
1965-1966 Indonesian Civil War
1966-1988 Namibian War of Independence
1966-1979 Second Chimurenga(Rhodesian Bush War)
1969-Present Communist and Islamic Insurgency in the Philippines
1967 Six-Day War (Third Arab-Israeli War)
1967-1970 Nigerian Civil War
1968-1970 War of Attrition
1969 Football War
1969 Sino-Soviet border conflict
1969-1994 The Troubles in Northern Ireland
1970 Black September
1971 Bangladesh Liberation War
1971 Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
1973 Yom Kippur War (Fourth Arab-Israeli War)
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1974-1991 Ethiopian Civil War
1975-1989 Angolan Civil War
1975-1991 Western Sahara conflict
1975-1991 Lebanese Civil War
1975-1998 War of Independence in East Timor
1975-1992 Mozambican Civil War
1975-2006 Independence War in Cabinda
1977 Libyan-Egyptian War
1977-1978 Ogaden War
1977-1991 Cambodian-Vietnamese War
1978-2005 The Aceh War
1978-1988 Ugandan Civil War
1979 Sino-Vietnamese War
1979 Libyan Invasion of Chad
1979-1989 Soviet war in Afghanistan
1980-1992 El Salvador Civil War
1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War
1981 Paquisha War
1982 Falklands War
1982 1982 Lebanon War
1983 Invasion of Grenada
1983-2000 Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka
1983-2005 Second Sudanese Civil War
1984-present Free Papua Movement
1985 Christmas War
1987-1993 First Intifada
1988-1994 Nagorno-Karabakh war
1989-1991 Mauritania-Senegal Border War
1989-1990 Invasion of Panama
1989-1997 First Liberian Civil War
1989 Romanian Revolution
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1945%E2%80%931989"

the end...
List of wars 1990–2002
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002 - List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

1990-1991 Gulf War
1990-1994 Rwandan Civil War
1990-1998 Tuareg Rebellion
1991-2001 Yugoslav Wars
1991 Slovenian War
1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992-1995 Bosnian War
1998-1999 Kosovo War
1991-1993 Georgian Civil War
1991-1992 Georgian-Ossetian Conflict
1992-1993 Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict
1991-1997 Sierra Leone Civil War
1992-1997 Tajikistan Civil War
1993-1999 Burundi Civil War
1994 1994 Yemeni Civil War
1994-1996 First Chechen War
1995 NATO bombing of Republika Srpska
1995 Cenepa War
1996-1997 First Congo War
1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War
1998-2002 Second Congo War
1999 Kargil War
1999 Dagestan War
1999-2003 Second Liberian Civil War
2000-Present Al-Aqsa Intifada
2001 2001 Macedonia conflict
2001-Present United States war in Afghanistan
2001-Present Civil War in Côte d'Ivoire
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1990%E2%80%932002"
List of wars 2003–current
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Ongoing_wars. (Discuss)
List of wars - List of wars before 1000 - List of wars 1000–1499 - List of wars 1500–1799 - List of wars 1800–1899 - List of wars 1900–1944 - List of wars 1945–1989 - List of wars 1990–2002- List of wars 2003–current - Ongoing wars

2003-present Balochistan conflict, Pakistan
2003-present Darfur conflict, Sudan
2003-present Iraq War
2004 Haiti rebellion
2004-2006 Waziristan War, Pakistan
2005-2006 Chad-Sudan conflict
2005-present Western Sahara Independence Intifada
2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_2003%E2%80%93current"

1847???
The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848.

What has that pamphlet to do with the list of wars you've just listed?

You can save yourself a lot of bother messing about on Wikipedia and get to the point.
There's been wars for thousands of years? And?
That wasn't the point of the article. It was to make a connection between 9/11 and wars from hundreds of years ago from the loosest possible association.

my point?
What has the above got to with the chaos of the world and the USA and Israel?

nothing at all.

Is that it?
You've stopped spamming now have you?

10 posts to tell me there have been wars for thousands of years?

Perhaps you can now describe the causes of each of the wars you listed.

do you need to be lead by the nose?
47 48 OH well then that makes all the difference.

The Muslims need no provocation to start a war.
They go to war and will continue to do so until they have "their" reformation.

Name one other religious group, civilisation, or ideology that has gone to war as consistantly as Islam over such a long time, 1400 years?

633 - 651 Islamic Conquest of Sassanid Empire

Wake up!

Do I have to repeat the same questions over and over again.
47 48 OH well then that makes all the difference."

I thought you were the king of research, impressing me with your Wikipedia skills? If you're going to use the Communist Manifesto as one of a handful of key markers in history why not get the year right? You still haven't answered the question as to why it was so important to include it, particularly as you seem to believe that the consistent historical problem has been Islam.

"Wake up!"

I see you have no intention of answering the questions I've raised. The only connection you can make between all conflicts that happen to involve Muslims is that they involve Muslims. Fantastic! Let's disregard the wars of national liberation in the Middle East, for example, since it can reduced to the Islamic urge to start wars without any provocation!?! Military and political occupation not being sufficient criteria to rise up against the colonial oppressor, of course!

"Name one other religious group, civilisation, or ideology that has gone to war as consistently as Islam over such a long time, 1400 years?"

It is banal in the extreme to assume that because some, or all, of the actors in a particular war are Muslims ergo the war must have a religious basis. Wars over territory, ideology, resources etc are all compressed into your linear interpretation of history merely because those involved happen to be Muslims. Preposterous! Hence why it can be equally ridiculous to see Christianity in any war involving the nominal followers of Christ. Is that so hard to grasp??? With such a methodology (Islam is the problem so work backwards to uncover the connections between 9/11 and a war in 792!) you will never discover the root causes of anything in that part of the world.

The reference to war in Ireland is a case in point, and certainly has more religious connotations than wars of national liberation in Africa and Asia. In the case of Ireland, religion was often used by all protagonists to justify their claims. Religion was merely a backdrop to the wars, however. That hasn't stopped even contemporary commentators describing it as a war between 2 groups of Irish savages - Protestant and Catholic. Utterly ludicrous!

"The Muslims need no provocation to start a war.
They go to war and will continue to do so until they have "their" reformation."
They just start wars for the hell of it? Grow up!

Question: Do you consider the following to be a continuation of the Islamic will to war:



1992-1995 Bosnian War
2001 2001 Macedonia conflict
1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War
1945-1949 Indonesian National Revolution
1948-1960 Malayan Emergency 1954-1962 Algerian War of Independence
1956 Suez War (Second Arab-Israeli War)
The notion that Islam plays the leading role in the above wars (or in some cases, ANY role) is patently ridiculous!
You deliberately seek to blur the distinction between fundamentalists, moderates and secular. As such you reveal your aim to be a war with all Muslims, not the fundamentalist cretins.

oh
you make fun of my dates and then use them.

You don't need me to respond to your questions you appear to be quite content to put words in my mouth.

it makes no difference to them.
right now they are using secularism as the excuse.
They are equal opportunity killers.
If you aren't a Muslim you are less than human.

1400 years one group still killing peoples of other religions.
All over the world all states including their own.

Oh well
"you make fun of my dates and then use them."

I use them to ask you a question to which you have no response except to reiterate your prejudices.

"You don't need me to respond to your questions you appear to be quite content to put words in my mouth."

The 'words I've put in your mouth' are inferences from what you've already said. Since you haven't pointed to an example of where I've inferred incorrectly, I'll assume I was near enough to the truth.

"it makes no difference to them.
right now they are using secularism as the excuse."

This is just schoolboy sociology to match your juvenile historiography. They're all just mad aren't they?
Oh and 'using secularism as an excuse'? That's not what you've been saying! Or do you mean secularism was 'their' conspiracy to have the West believe they were interested in social progress? The rotters eh?

"They are equal opportunity killers.
If you aren't a Muslim you are less than human."

Of course it's true! Every last one of them! Whatever you say!
Remember this one of yours? "Or is this just an assertion derived from your experiences and connected together through the sheer power of your overwhelming intellectual prowess."

"1400 years one group still killing peoples of other religions.
All over the world all states including their own."

It's ok if you can't grasp historical development, wilfully exclude the impact of wider forces and their interaction, tear conflicts out of context, and resort to assertion rather than analysis. If your hatred of all Muslims helps you sleep at night, then so much the better. But then I'd be guilty of relativism so I'll just say it as I see it.
The consequence of looking at the peculiarities of Islam in isolation from other developments is that all sorts of saloon bar prejudices can be taken seriously. (I doubt yours could, however.)
Perhaps you could offer up your pub philosopher perceptions of the Italians ('hot-headed Latins maybe?), Germans (efficient and humourless?) Nordics (clinical?).

You sound like a cruder version of those academics who were constantly changing the boundaries of 'Western', 'Central' and 'Eastern' Europe as a means of denoting 'civilisation' when the fall of Stalinism led to ethnic conflict, economic meltdown and civil wars. Your prejudices would have been right at home during the Yugoslav wars: Latin, post-Reformation Catholic Croats, Eastern non-Reformation Orthodox collectivist Serbs and nasty psychotic Muslims.
P.J. O'Rourke had it right though when he said "Serbs and Croats are so much alike that the only way they can tell each other apart is by religion. And most of them aren't religious. So the difference between Serbs and Croats is that the Serbs don't go to Eastern Orthodox services and the Croats don't attend mass. And the difference between Serbs and Muslims is that five times a day the Muslims don't pray to Mecca."

bla bla bla bla blaaa
See? You don't need my input.

You can carry on your left wing quasi dialogue all by yourself. You're just like a woman, ask a question, then answer it all by yourself.

If you don't get what you want right away stamp your little feet and throw a hissy fit.

I posted those dates and those articles to back the author's assertions. It had nothing to with you, you silly little girl.

I have question of my own.
On either side of your monitor, did you glue the mirrors or use screws?

Go get your hair done sweetheart, you'll feel much better.

don't worry your pretty little head about it. The men will do the heavy lifting, just like they always have.

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